FrankenWashie's Fourth, The TLA-TH

[Bakersdozen]

Yikes Bro! That is an eek situation. And yes such a shame as that heel curve and transition look beautifully done.

[Trevor Davies]

"Bit of a bummer but it’s all a learning experience."

A learning experience should not be that brutal. Hopefully it has clamped back together well.

[FrankenWashie]

Well it’s back together-ish.




It will always bear a scar it seems. Rather fitting fro the FrankenLab TBH.
I’ve plugged the errant mounting hole, I may attempt some extra dwelling through the side prior to attempting the inserts again.


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[Simon Barden]

Maybe you (or Igor) could paint in the crack and then paint some stitches across it to emphasize the repair?

[Rabbit]

A video poped up today while I was perusing youtube, from Highland Guitars, and he mentions one of the risks of inserts being exactly what happened to you... he seemed to think that for the past 70 years wood screws were good enough for Fender, and unless you are having to remove the neck on a regular basis there was no advantage to inserts.

[Simon Barden]

I am of a generally similar opinion. If you've got badly damaged screw holes in the neck, then they can be a good repair solution, but there's a lot of effort to get them going in just right unless you've got a CNC setup. Even then, you are at the mercy of the quality of the wood used, as the inserts take the hole ends a lot closer to the edge of the neck than a much smaller screw hole does. If there's a mismatch between the body bolt hole and the neck insert centre, there could be a lot of sideways stress on the insert pushing against the thin outer edge of the hole.

[FrankenWashie]

A video poped up today while I was perusing youtube, from Highland Guitars, and he mentions one of the risks of inserts being exactly what happened to you... he seemed to think that for the past 70 years wood screws were good enough for Fender, and unless you are having to remove the neck on a regular basis there was no advantage to inserts.

Yes, it’s one of the risks associated with the inserts, but with the paring down I choose to do with the neck joint on the strats and teles, it renders the neck plate moot, or, as Simon had pointed out wth the scratch multi scale build, you run the risk of going too thin on the joint nice you’ve bored the recess for a ferrule etc.

Felt the furniture screws were a good compromise as they present a wider surface area under the head and negate the need for a ferrule, allowing for a reduced counter bore and there for more wood thickness under the head of the bolt.
In other builds (IB-5, Experiment #5, JM scratchie) I’ve used the same concept, wth low head cap screws or the furniture bolts but epoxied in these brass M6 anchors:



These are okay, and a simpler drilling as the hole is a single diameter, the set up is the same sort of fiddling to get things square and true. I just didn’t like the epoxy. I may revert to one of these for the problematic hole.


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[FrankenWashie]

Maybe you (or Igor) could paint in the crack and then paint some stitches across it to emphasize the repair?

I was thinking along those lines late yesterday actually, along with miniature brass bow tie inserts, simulated staples or something similar.


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[Dikkybee007]

Just wanted to give some advice on the inserts as I really don't see a problem with them. I probably would not use them but you do you. If you look at the big picture it also raises a few questions that may help in future endeavours.

Firstly you got 3 right and you only had a problem with one so its a 75% pass so far but the problem was with your technique rather than the insert. If you didn't drill the hole deep enough you obviously didn't have a way of setting a depth which could have been as simple as a piece of tape. Secondly you didn't check the depth before going to the second drill size which created a problem that was preventable. We have all done similar so your not unique but if you learn from it then you are unique because not everyone learns from their mistakes.

The splitting of the wood was not due to the insert but , by what I have read, the drill deciding to go rogue. If you had of put a clamp across the width them it may not have split but it may have been better to regrind the drill as they do when drilling brass so it would not have grabbed and maybe turning the drill in your hand depending on the depth needed. Maybe clamping the neck so it was in a suitable location to make the drilling process easier and by what has happened safer.

I would use the same insert in the hole after gluing the neck but use a spare insert, file some flats on the thread so it acts like a tap, put a clamp across the width of the newly glued neck and run the insert in and out so when you release the clamp there is no pressure on the glued joint. Once it is in the body the body may stop it splitting so it should be good.

Lastly it does raise the question about the joining of the neck to the body. Why some glue and some screw. Is one better than the other? Does one increase the sustain and tone? How often do you expect to remove a glued in neck? Do you ever remove a screwed in neck? I saw the video on the use of inserts and that was his opinion but was he looking at it from a money making exercise compared to our having some fun and expressing our creativity and pushing the boundaries until it goes bang.

I have a acoustic guitar that has a glued in neck that was my Dad's and it is over 50 years old and it has never had the neck removed so the idea of using screws is ridicules as it is obviously cheaper than using 4 screws and a plate but some people swear by it. Others use screws and a plate or inserts under the head of the screw and they never remove the neck so why not just glue it but they feel the use of screws is the way its done. Everyone has their way of doing it and would never try the other as it seems right. The same as you using the inserts, you wanted something you had done before or wanted to use a process that you thought was doable and by the 75% success you had you were right, you just needed to hone your technique a little bit. I would always use a screw in insert as it holds better but that is just through my experience. The selected insert may not have been the best choice but you can modify the insert to improve its suitability. Most of my guitars are screwed together but I don't think one is better than the other and by what you have done may make me try inserts in the future as from what I have seen it is quite doable and hopefully I will learn from your mistakes.

[FrankenWashie]

Hi Dikkybee,

thanks for the reply. The clamp while drilling is a good idea (also suggested by the father in law).
I’d set up depth stops on my drill press, so the depths weren’t an issue other than with the rebate for the taper on the top of the insert.

I found that the suspect insert location was about 1/8” out of line from where it should have been, which seems contributory.



I’m going to redo this mount and the one in front of it (it’s not as bad, but it ain’t great) using the brass inserts I’d pictured earlier.

I’m also going to build some form of a jig, to align body and neck for drilling rather than try and transfer measurements betwixt the two.

In terms of the utility/tone/otherwise of such arrangements, I have no real opinion. I like it because it allows me to taper and reshape the neck body join. (See Barlow guitars, or Archetype guitars NZ for influences) I suppose I could do the same with neck through and eliminate the joint altogether. It’s just a lot more work.


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