First build: secret model #6 - single cutaway guitar

Hi all,

Just ordered the kit for my first build ever.
It's one of the discontinued kits, a single cutaway guitar with mahogany neck and body, plus a flame maple veneer.

I have some initial finishing ideas in mind based on what I have read here, but would love your input. Please tell me if I'm doing something dumb. I am a big fan of the dyed/stained see-through look in general. On the other hand, I already have an ash 2-tone sunburst (54 reissue) Strat which is brownish/yellow, so I want something considerably different.

I'm thinking of a dyed/stained reddish look for the top. Planning on dyeing it with a really diluted black ubeaut water based dye to accentuate the flame, then going for the red.

Still unsure about the back/sides and neck. Again, I really like the transparent look and accentuating the wood grain, so my current plan is to fill the grain with ebony timbermate, sand it back, then either go for a lighter more natural (brownish?) look to contrast the top, or a mahogany/reddish stain so it's sort of closer to the top?

I am a bit lost on the choices of sanding sealer and top coats since there is a lot of conflicting info, so would greatly appreciate it if someone pointed me in a direction.

Will post an update as soon as the kit arrives.

Cheers

Hi and welcome brandfbr.

My 2 cents: As far as sanding sealer goes - I have not had much success with adding stain after some sanding sealers. So definitely test it on scrap wood. The Ubeaut sanding sealer is the one I now use, and it works well with the Ubeaut stains!

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

...As far as sanding sealer goes - I have not had much success with adding stain after some sanding sealers.

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1+

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

Just ordered the kit for my first build ever.
It's one of the discontinued kits, a single cutaway guitar with mahogany neck and body, plus a flame maple veneer.

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Welcome! Good call on a first kit. These are pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

I'm thinking of a dyed/stained reddish look for the top. Planning on dyeing it with a really diluted black ubeaut water based dye to accentuate the flame, then going for the red.

Still unsure about the back/sides and neck. Again, I really like the transparent look and accentuating the wood grain, so my current plan is to fill the grain with ebony timbermate, sand it back, then either go for a lighter more natural (brownish?) look to contrast the top, or a mahogany/reddish stain so it's sort of closer to the top?

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The veneer is super thin and delicate. I should add that I am much better at messing up veneer than at staining it...but with that said... I would sand the veneer just as little as you can get away with. Using dark grain filler and sanding back is great for solid wood, but I would worry about going through the veneer. You really shouldn't need grain filler on maple anyway. On the sides and back, sure, but I'd be very careful with that top. For the same reason, you'll want to be very careful about accentuating the flame, particularly if it means doing any sanding. Just my non-expert thoughts.

Thanks Trevor. I think I will go with the ubeaut stain, then ubeaut sanding sealer then.

Febder3x: thanks for the heads up. I'll grain fill just the back and neck. Btw, I loved the finishes on your two teles... How hard and smelly did you find the tru-oil process? I live in a flat and have a totally closed garage (private, but little to no ventilation). I am wondering if water based poly is my only pathway or if I could get away with something like tru-oil.

TD has used Tru-oil more than I have. I have only experimented with it a bit. It does not have a lot of odor, and I did use it in my marginally ventilated garage. Here's the safety data sheet on it:

https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/conte...k%20Finish.pdf

Like pretty much any oil finish, it has petroleum based solvents that make it toxic. Probably not that bad, but you'd want to use it in a well ventilated space. My small experience with it suggests that it is easy to use, levels well and makes a nice shiny finish. It will also add a bit of amber color. One of my experiments was to see how it did over spray paint. It did fine ;-) Others may know if it gets deeper with age as some oils do, that's good or bad depending on your tastes and what you have under it ;-)

If you have seen my work-in-progress Tele project it's all garnet shellac and water based poly on the body. I like using shellac, but I found it hard to get even color out of the garnet shellac I was using. I won't use it again. The poly is General Finishes High Performance. I can get a decent finish out of it, but the main virtue of the products I use is low VOCs and toxicity. I really like the finishes that TD and others have gotten with Cabot's water based poly...but it ain't sold where I live. Pity, it looks about as safe as poly gets...

file:///C:/Users/rbeaulau/Downloads/...N_-AUS_GHS.pdf

...and it cures faster than what I am using.

FYI, I think the Ubeaut sanding sealer goes before the Ubeaut stain.

A few years ago, a member called Dozymuppet had a great result using diluted Ubeaut black, gently sanding back, and then adding the colour stain. FYI - beware of blue stain and tru-oil. The posts are:
https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post209750

Also, I have had great success with Tru-oil. All my early builds used it until I moved to spraying. I applied it in the garage, and would move them inside after a couple of days (and was not too smelly!). I brushed on the first 2 coats, then I could add thin coats about 2 hours apart. I usually added 20+ thin coats. I found it very easy to use, worked in cold and warm climates, wasn't affected by humidity. It did require quite a bit of lint-free cloth, and gloves! I sanded lightly every 5 coats moving up from 400g to 2000g paper.

Funny thing you said that about the sanding sealer, I'm testing just that order stain/sanding sealer on some plywood I had laying around. Let's see what happens.

I'm planning on doing just that: dying it black, then sanding it and going with the red stain. I tried a very diluted version of black to avoid having to sand it back too much, but that didn't really highlight the grain and only gave a sort of grayish tinge to the whole thing. So, back to the original plan. I'll probably use maybe only 400 or 320 grit to avoid sanding through the veneer.

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

I'm planning on doing just that: dying it black, then sanding it and going with the red stain. I tried a very diluted version of black to avoid having to sand it back too much, but that didn't really highlight the grain and only gave a sort of grayish tinge to the whole thing. So, back to the original plan. I'll probably use maybe only 400 or 320 grit to avoid sanding through the veneer.

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Take care with the sanding grits: most folks on this forum say not to use above 180g (though I go to 240!) paper if you intend to stain, as the higher grits tend to polish the wood which affects stain absorption.

I'll defer to TD's greater knowledge (and better finishes!) but I would be a bit leery of dying and sanding back the top. Those veneers are just so delicate. That could be just my paranoia talking tho... I do feel that veneers are out to get me.

For sanding, I use what my OEM Dye Stain website suggests as rules of thumb:

https://generalfinishes.com/wood-fin...ased-dye-stain

So following that rule, you'd use 220 on the top and 180 on the back and sides, although I am not convinced it makes a huge difference.

One thing I did with paulownia and will most likely do with mahogany, is to use a finer grit on end-grain...220 or 320...or even a bit higher. The reason is that end grain really soaks up the dye and it can get too dark. So with end-grain a little bit of a polishing effect can keep it from soaking in too much dye. I don't think this is necessary with closed grain woods like maple, but for open grain woods I think it helps to keep the color even.

+1 for:
"... I would be a bit leery of dying and sanding back the top. Those veneers are just so delicate."

The MBM-1 I'm working on now is my first kit with a veneer top. So basically, I have NO knowledge about them:confused:

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

+1 for:
"... I would be a bit leery of dying and sanding back the top. Those veneers are just so delicate."

The MBM-1 I'm working on now is my first kit with a veneer top. So basically, I have NO knowledge about them:confused:

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I have no successful experience with these veneers. I have two basses that had veneer tops. Both tops are now painted solid colors. In my defense, only the first one was an unintentional sand through. The second one was always going to get a solid color top because I did a bunch of mods to the top. I was not gentile with my sanding, but with that said, just the sanding I did to get it ready for the paint damaged the veneer.

On the "single cutaway" the veneer is not figured, but it is mahogany and will need grain filling. I am planning to just use stain and AquaCoat and see how little sanding I can get away with.

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Originally Posted by fender3x

I have no successful experience with these veneers. I have two basses that had veneer tops. Both tops are now painted solid colors. In my defense, only the first one was an unintentional sand through. The second one was always going to get a solid color top because I did a bunch of mods to the top. I was not gentile with my sanding, but with that said, just the sanding I did to get it ready for the paint damaged the veneer.

On the "single cutaway" the veneer is not figured, but it is mahogany and will need grain filling. I am planning to just use stain and AquaCoat and see how little sanding I can get away with.

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Did you sand through it while hand sanding it or were you using an electric sander? I did quite a bit of research and was getting more confident with the idea, but you've made me worried now... My idea is that by rubbing the top with a rag with metho after the dye has some time to settle in, I can remove most of the black from the grain that is on top, leaving it in the figured grain, so I end up having to sand very little...

My current plan is: no sanding at all + 2 coats of 1:5 ubeaut black dye. Then try to rub it off the best I can with a damp rag (water or method). Then ubeaut sanding sealer (1 coat) + lightly sand it (240/320), removing most of the black, then concentrated ubeaut red dye.

We'll see what happens

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

Did you sand through it while hand sanding it or were you using an electric sander?

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I never use a machine sander once I start putting any sort of finish on the guitar. For sure I would not use it on anything with a curved top or veneer. I have seen people do this on the internet, but I am ham-handed enough without the need for powertools! ;-)

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My current plan is: no sanding at all + 2 coats of 1:5 ubeaut black dye. Then try to rub it off the best I can with a damp rag (water or method). Then ubeaut sanding sealer (1 coat) + lightly sand it (240/320), removing most of the black, then concentrated ubeaut red dye.

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I have not used Ubeaut products, although they look great. Unfortunately, they are not available in the US to my knowledge. That said, I'll attach a video that you might want to look at before you get started. It is causing me to rethink *my* plan a bit...

The veneer is REALLY thin. Probably less that .6 mm. Maybe as little as .4mm. That's a thin business card. It won't put up with much sanding. Also, dye is not going to penetrate very far. First because the water based glue under the veneer has already penetrated from the other side, so your dye, black or red, is not going to penetrate far. I would be worried about whether it is even possible to sand back without getting down to the glue layer. If you do that, your red won't penetrate well. I also don't think there is much reason to use sanding sealer. The veneer is maple, which usually doesn't need to be sealed. Also, you can't really do much sanding.

The good thing about maple is that it is closed pore. Still the grain can raise a bit using water based products, which is why the guy in the vid suggests using alcohol (metho in Australia, I think) based dyes rather than water based.

Mine has a mahogany veneer, which is open pore. Usually I would raise the grain with a bit of water, then sand, then apply my water based dye stain. But now I am wondering if I should use colored shellac that won't raise the grain, and will mostly stay on top of the wood. Or maybe use an aniline dye. Or I may still use the water based dye, but I will definitely try to find something to practice on first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J8z...c5uKo&index=48

The kit is here! The top looks very nice. Took a picture with the metho trick.

I am just puzzled by one thing: is the body missing that dent/loop or is that area supposed to be just empty between the neck and the body? The neck has some form of curve or hook, yet the body neck pocket is just straight.. is that supposed to be like that? It fits perfectly otherwise, but it seems like some wood is "missing"? Should I fill it with something?Attachment 45267

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

The kit is here! The top looks very nice. Took a picture with the metho trick.

I am just puzzled by one thing: is the body missing that dent/loop or is that area supposed to be just empty between the neck and the body? The neck has some form of curve or hook, yet the body neck pocket is just straight.. is that supposed to be like that? It fits perfectly otherwise, but it seems like some wood is "missing"? Should I fill it with something?Attachment 45267

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Yes, it is supposed to be like that. No need to fill it. I'm not really sure why they are designed like that!

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

Yes, it is supposed to be like that. No need to fill it. I'm not really sure why they are designed like that!

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Awesome, thanks a lot mate, I was worried there for a second.

So, I was a bit stubborn and decided not to follow your advice and went and stained the top black after watching the PRS fire red burst video. I used the ubeaut black stain in a 1:5 dilution in two coats. This was the result. Attachment 45268

I then tried to get most of the stain off with metho, then carefully lightly sanded it back with 240, 400, and green Scotch Brite pads. I was quite conservative and stopped when I started to see some streaks of bare wood and it was grayish. Then I went with two coats of orange, then 1 coat of red (for now). I'm quite satisfied with how it's going I think, though it might be darker/blacker than I initially wanted?
Attachment 45269

Attachment 45270

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

So, I was a bit stubborn and decided not to follow your advice and went and stained the top black after watching the PRS fire red burst video. I used the ubeaut black stain in a 1:5 dilution in two coats. This was the result.

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Looking at that video now...I am always happy to have my over-caution proved wrong ;-)

FWIW you got a really cool color out of it. Not something I have seen before on this style of guitar, which makes it all the better.

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

I'm quite satisfied with how it's going I think, though it might be darker/blacker than I initially wanted?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45269

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You got an effect that looks a lot like the PRS. That is all the more impressive when you consider that the PRS does not have a veneer. In the vid it looks like the top is a 1/2" chunk of carved flame maple. I guess they can do that when they plan to sell it for north of $4.5K.

You may have given me the confidence to stick with my water based stain ;-)

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Originally Posted by fender3x

You got an effect that looks a lot like the PRS. That is all the more impressive when you consider that the PRS does not have a veneer. In the vid it looks like the top is a 1/2" chunk of carved flame maple. I guess they can do that when they plan to sell it for north of $4.5K.

You may have given me the confidence to stick with my water based stain ;-)

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My main takeaway as of now is: don't over sand. The body looked quite black/gray in the beginning, and after the first coat of orange I thought I hadn't sanded enough and that it would turn out too dark.. I just kept on putting thin coats, with more concentrated dye and the black ended up fading more into the background. The last red coat ended up being basically 1:1 water and dye.

The stained veneer looks great. Hopefully the clear coats will make it really pop.

FWIW, I think the black would have looked great as the final colour, and the yellow (orange!) would have looked great, and the red!

Took me a while but... It's ready!
I had a bit of a bad experience with the timbermate wood filler - it was very hard to sand and took forever. I went for the mahogany coloured filler, so it was harder to distinguish between what was wood and what was filler, but it's done now.

I put in a couple of coats of cabot water based poly, sanding with maroon scotch Brite between coats. Waited about 10 days after the last coat to cure, then level sanded with 800+1200 grit, then white scotch Brite. Job wasn't perfect in the top, I had a few poly runs in the back, but decided to keep those as is. I ended with some Meguiar's polish compound and then scratch remover with some foam pads in a drill.

I am in love with the results. Sure, there are imperfections and I think the top could have turned out better, but overall I'm very proud. I think there are some sharp spots on my tailpiece because I have broken some strings at the ball end, but other than that, it's great.

I haven't played it really loud just yet, but will do so this weekend, so I am looking forward to that. Still haven't purchased the pickups for it, so I installed the ones from the kit. Will try and get some more pictures and maybe a video this weekend.Attachment 45290

WOW. Well done! That looks very nice. Great shine as well. You should be really happy with it.

Out of interest, did you use the good kit strings? I have not heard of the tailpiece needing to be filed before!

Really impressed with the results you got! I am thinking of doing something similar. I have a good water based stain and after watching yours, am a bit more confident that it could work well, and that maybe I can avoid using the alcohol dyes.

What pickups are you going to use? It looks great with the chrome covers. Will you use those? I thought just a bit about swapping out the magnets. I looked at the resistance and inductance of mine and concluded that they'd be a bit hot for my tastes...although I haven't actually heard them--which I understand may be important ;-) Hope you'll share about how it sounds!

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Originally Posted by fender3x

Really impressed with the results you got! I am thinking of doing something similar. I have a good water based stain and after watching yours, am a bit more confident that it could work well, and that maybe I can avoid using the alcohol dyes.

What pickups are you going to use? It looks great with the chrome covers. Will you use those? I thought just a bit about swapping out the magnets. I looked at the resistance and inductance of mine and concluded that they'd be a bit hot for my tastes...although I haven't actually heard them--which I understand may be important ;-) Hope you'll share about how it sounds!

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I wired the kit pickups in and have actually enjoyed them. They are a bit hotter than I would want, but they did surprise me. I ended up ordering a custom PAF-like set from Mr Fabulous (the LIX set with alnico 3 in the neck and 2 in the bridge), but that's still a couple of days away. Hopefully I'll get to play it loud next weekend

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

WOW. Well done! That looks very nice. Great shine as well. You should be really happy with it.

Out of interest, did you use the good kit strings? I have not heard of the tailpiece needing to be filed before!

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Yeah, both the good strings and a new set of daddarios. I think I fixed it though, just had to file inside the tailpiece a little bit to get rid of what I felt like was a sharp corner. Seems fine now

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Originally Posted by brandfbr

Yeah, both the good strings and a new set of daddarios. I think I fixed it though, just had to file inside the tailpiece a little bit to get rid of what I felt like was a sharp corner. Seems fine now

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I had to do a bit of that on the TOM bridge that came with my similar kit. In my case the one of the posts did not quite fit through the hole in the bridge. Easily fixable with a little emery cloth. I have a feeling that they may have gotten a little aggressive with the chroming process at the factory. That might also result in sharp spots. I have also had the occasional threaded part that needed re-tapping even on pretty high quality bridges.