Is my glue in neck set incorrectly?

[SA_Brad]

Hey community,

I bought a flea bay auction PBG a long time ago and eventually got around to building it. It is an SG model with a set neck. I followed the post on setting up the neck and it turned out this kit was not going to be perfect if I just jammed the neck all the way in as the angle would have been out on both axis. So I made a little shim to fix the angle up and down and now the strings are evenly positioned across the fretboard. Tick. I put a clamp on it as a dry fit and the angle back seemed to be right. So I glued (titebond) and clamped it, checked it again and was happy the set up knowing I could always pull the neck back a bit more with the truss rod once it was strung.

My problem now is that I have buzzing at about fret 3 and the action has to be way too high for my liking to get rid of it. So my suspicion is the neck angle is set wrong, back too far. The truss rod is fully loosened but there is not enough tension from the strings to pull the neck forward to stop this buzzing.

Oh yeah, I ran a metal ruler edge up the fret board and the third fret does not seem any higher than it's neighbours.

Thoughts anyone.

What are my options? Raise the nut height. Remove the neck and set it again? Can that even be done?

I look forward to seeing what you all think.

Brad

[ultpanzi]

Loosening your truss rod would be a good idea to see if that fixes the buzzing issue first. If it does, and you still dont like your action, I'd knock out the nut and sand a tad off the bottom or just replace it entirely. If the truss rod doesnt give you a quick fix, then check your neck. A good thing to do before attempting to fix it would be to capo 1st fret and push down on the low E, 17th fret and see the gap between the string and the neck. If you cant fix a 0.5mm pick through without it touching the string then you need to loosen the truss rod. If theres already a massive gap, check the neck angle. Hope this helps!!

[dingobass]

Hmmmm. is it buzzing on any other frets?
If it is only the third then that would suggest that it is higher.

Can you post some pics with her strung up and tuned, with your straight edge on?

The Gavmeister may have an answer so I would wait to see what he says before we progress to the next step which involves removing the neck.... that will be a pain in the..well.. neck, but doable

[SA_Brad]

Thanks guys, with the truss rod full loosened the buzz is still there. Sanding the nut down would only accentuate the problem. I think it is the reverse, the nut almost needs to be higher, but I'm not sure just raising the nut will fix it.

I did the test with a capo and there is no gap, strings touch all frets ... Oh oh, that's not good.

It's buzzing on frets 2,3+4 and I checked again and those frets seem to be fine in relation to the ones around them.

I've just taken a couple of photos on the iPad so I'll see if I can put em up here for you guys to see. You will see a big gap under the rule from about fret 5.

[Gavin1393]

Gavmeister is in da houze!

Hmmm....Buzzing only on the third fret....did you do a fret levelling job on the guitar? I suspect not from what you have mentioned. It is possible that the third fret is higher than the first and second fret which would explain the buzzing. I would love to see some photographs from the side with a straight edge or even a ruler that purports to be straight. This might give us some indication. A fret rocker of course would tell us immediately.

Here is my article on Setting up your Intonation

When you have your guitar strung up and tuned, you need to check the curvature of the neck.
You may see on other websites that a gap of 1/64” (0.4mm) - 1/32” (0.8mm) is required…so what does that look like, especially if you don’t have an engineers rule or other measuring device?
A standard credit card is about 0.65mm and standard business card is about 0.3mm. You can probably find these two things in your wallet or purse.
Get them out and have them handy.

Pick up your guitar and hold it in the playing position.
Put a capo or small clamp on the first fret (closest to the nut) to hold the string down.
The string needs to be contacting the first metal fret.
You can also have a friend hold down the low E string.
Next, with your picking hand, hold down the low E string at the 17th fret.
As you should see, the string forms a straight edge between the first and 17th frets.

There should be a slight gap between the E string and the 9th fret.
If not, your neck has “back bow”, which we’ll address later.
Still holding the string down, use your free hand and try to slide the business card under the E string right on top of the 9th fret.
If it slides under the string without contact, try the credit card.
If the credit card slides in without contact, try the two cards together.
If this doesn’t make contact, your neck needs some work!
Ideally, the business card should clear the string, but the credit card shouldn’t.
If the credit card clears the fret and string with ease, we have some “bow”, or relief in the neck.

On most guitars, the same rule for truss rods holds true: Right is tight, left is loose.(Pit Bull Guitars have a two way truss rod)
Looking at the truss rod adjustment on top of the neck near the tuners, the right/left arrangement is from the top of the neck looking toward the body of the guitar.
If you have back bow, you need to loosen the truss rod, or turn the nut on the truss rod left.
If you have bow, you need to tighten the truss rod, or turn the nut on the truss rod to the right.

As a technique, It is a good thing to always loosen the truss rod before adjustment.
If you start cranking the truss rod down, and it is already pretty tight, you may break it, and this is something you won't be able to fix at home in an afternoon.

There are generally two types of adjusters on truss rods: A nut for Gibson style truss rods, and a hex-head screw for just about everything else.

The hex-head is type is used on Pit Bull guitars.
Make sure the hex-head driver that came with your guitar is well seated – you don’t want to strip it out, or again your have trouble on your hands.
Generally about a ¼ turn is enough to move the neck.
If you move it more than a full turn, you may have an issue.

Step Three: Check string height at the nut.

To check the height of the nut, start at the low E string, and fret it on the third fret (a “G” note).
The string should be sitting on the first fret, or just above it, close enough just to see some light through the gap between the string and the fret.
Try holding the string down on the third fret and "tap" the string above the first fret, kind of like checking the neck relief.
You should be able to press the string down just ever so slightly onto the first fret.

Try this procedure for all of the strings.
If there is a big gap, your nut needs some work.
Can you fix this? You can if you have some nut files.
You can also use a set of old strings as they will act like files.
Hold them the same way you would hold a piece of dental floss and file the slot, always angling down towards the headstock.

Alternatively, you can remove the nut by gently tapping it with a plastic faced hammer.
Then clean away the glue residue from the nut and slot with a small file.
Next, fix a piece of 180 grit sand paper to a flat surface and rub the base of the nut.
Take your time, checking the string height regularly until you have achieved the correct height.

The height at the nut is critical to a good playing guitar.
If it is too high, the string will be too low at the 12th fret, probably causing a nasty buzz and intonation problems.

Before you continue, take a look at your bridge -- we're heading there next.
If you look at both bridges pictured below, you can see that the saddles on both are arranged similarly, with an adjustable saddle for each string.

Gibson-style Bridge

This bridge has six individually-adjustable saddles which are adjusted using the screws you can see at the bottom of the bridge facing the stop tailpiece.
The screws have a slot head, requiring a flat-head screwdriver.

On some guitars these screws face the other way (usually on the older or replica models).
If you have to adjust a saddle, place a soft cloth below where you're going to insert the tip of the screwdriver. This will help you avoid gouging the top of your guitar if you slip.

Turn the screw clockwise to move the saddle back and counterclockwise to move it forward.
Make small turns because a little turn can make a lot of difference.
After every adjustment to the position of the saddle, re tune the string to pitch and compare the 12th fret note and the open string.
Repeat the operation until the string has the correct intonation, then move on to the next string.

Fender-style Bridge

Although the Fender bridge looks different, the principles of setting the intonation are exactly the same as a Gibson bridge.

You move the saddles with an adjustment screw (in this case, a Phillips head screw) until the note at the 12th fret and the open string are the same.
Note: If these saddles are in a straight line, the guitar is probably not set up properly!

Step Four: Set the approximate positions of the string saddles on the bridge.

First, determine the scale of your guitar.
Measure from the body-side of the nut to precisely over the 12th Fret.
If you double this measurement, you have the scale of your guitar.

Using the distance from the nut to the 12th fret (we’ll call this measurement “x”), measure from the 12th fret to the bridge.
Using the screws on the back of the saddle, set the individual saddles to the following specs:

Note: It is easier to make the initial adjustments with the strings loosened.
Once you set the saddles, tune the guitar back to pitch.

Low E:
1/8” or 3.2mm longer than X
A:
1/16” or 1.6mm longer than X
D:
1/32” or0.8mm longer than X
G:
1/8” or 3.2mm longer than X
B:
1/16” or 1.6mm longer than X
High E:
1/32” or 0.8mm longer than X

We get the final settings once we get our saddle height, but this will get us close.

Step Five: Set string height at saddles.

Measure at the twelfth fret and set saddles so the height between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the twelfth fret is about 1/16" or 1.6mm.
The High E should set just at 1/16” or 1.6mm, this is about two credit card widths above the 12th fret (we know you have at least two credit cards!).

The other strings should be the same height, following the radius of the fretboard.
This is easy with the Gibson bridge -- just crank it up and down, and the shape of the bridge conforms to the fingerboard in most cases.
The Fender-style bridge has more adjustment range, and it may take a little more time to set it up.

Remember – This is a starting point to get your saddles set.
Your playing style may make you either raise or lower the saddles. We’re just trying to get in the ballpark.

When you complete this, the saddles on your bridge should be somewhere in the middle of their adjustment range.
If they are sitting flush on the body, or maxed out, your neck angle needs to be adjusted.
This can be done by using shims in the neck pocket.

To make a shim, get some photocopy paper and spray it with some epoxy type paint.
Let this dry and then cut to the shape of the neck pocket.
Next, cut it in half (width ways).
If your neck needs to slope back more, place the shim at the body end of the neck pocket. If it needs to come forward, at the open end of the pocket.
Bolt the neck back on and test the angle, repeat if needed.

Step Six: Fine tune the intonation setting with a tuner.

What we are going to do here is actually adjust the length of each string. This is the only way to make sure your guitar will play in tune all the way up the neck. You’ll need an electronic tuner for this job. You’ll need some small screwdrivers --flat tip or Phillips, depending on your bridge.

Follow these steps:
1. Hold the guitar in the playing position.
2. Hook up the electronic tuner and put it in a position where you can see it clearly.
3. Tune the entire guitar. Make sure you take your time and get it as precise as possible.
4. Start with the low E string. Play the string with a pick, and make sure it is in tune. Next, fret the string at the 12th fret, play the string, and check the tuning. It should show an E in tune.
5. If the note played at the 12th Fret is in tune like the open string, the string is properly intonated. If is isn’t continue to step 6.
6. If the note played at the 12th Fret is flat (below E), take your screwdriver and move the saddle toward the pickups. If the note was sharp (Above E), move the saddle away from the pickups. The General Rule: Flat = Forward
7. Continue this process until the open string and that same string fretted at the 12th fret are in perfect tune with each other.
8. Continue this process for all strings, and keep going back and checking the settings for each one.

[dingobass]

OK, From what you have just said it would indicate a back bow in the neck...
Good news is the truss rod is a two way, so continue to "loosen" and you will find it will bend the headstock end forward.
See if this alleviates some of the buzz and then we can go from there

[SA_Brad]

Thanks guys,

I think the back bow diagnosis is right on. Once I get that sorted I will follow the set up guide from Gavmiester

Here are a couple of pics .. Hopefully

[stan]

hope this works out easily for you

[Gavin1393]

Your action, namely the height of the strings above the fretboard around the 12th fret looks really high. I'm wondering if the neck is correctly inserted into the neck pocket. I have a concern that the angle is not quite what it should be. Have a read of the following and pay particular attention to the 'set neck' instructions.

Installing the Bolt-on neck
We acknowledge the contribution of one of our past Forum members in this post.
Perhaps the most important part of building your Pit Bull guitar kit is getting the neck centred and correctly aligned. It can seem to be a daunting task; with the right knowledge, some patience, and a bit of string, it is a snap.
As with all aspects of building a guitar, attention to detail is essential. The more attention to detail, the better the guitar will be.
Many people don’t realise that the neck has to be right in three dimensions- back and forward to get the right scale length, side to side to get the right alignment, and up and down to get the inclination to give the right action, and bridge and pickup relationships.
The steps:
TIP: You don’t need to use a tape measure to measure- a piece of fishing line or wool or string is all you need (except maybe for Step 1, but that’s up to you). You are comparing one measurement against another.
We’ll discuss the steps to getting your neck pointed- literally- in the right direction. I would suggest that you do this, or at least do a dry run, before any painting on the body or neck. That way that way, if you put a scrape on the guitar it can be fixed when finishing. Scraping an already finished guitar- well, not a good thought, is it.
Setting the Scale Length
Don’t assume that by jamming the neck as far as it goes into the body the scale length will be correct.
Measure the distance from the edge of the nut to the high point (the crown) of the 12th fret. Wind all the saddles as far forward (towards the pickups) as they will go. The distance from the edge of the pickup side of the saddles (on the bridge) to the crown of the 12th fret should be the same distance. Most times though, you may find that the second measurement from the saddles to the crown of the 12th fret is approximately 3mm longer. This s called compensation and is quite normal.
String Compensation
If measuring the full scale length (i.e. the full length – not just to the 12th fret as mentioned in the shortcut-tip above) we usually measure at the top-E string. That’s because this string is the thinnest and requires the least amount of string compensation. This string is, therefore, closer to the actual scale length of the instrument. The other strings are generally compensated which means they’re actually slightly longer than the scale length.
What is compensation?
When you fret a string somewhere along the fretboard, you actually sharpen that string’s pitch by a tiny amount. To compensate for this, each string is made a little bit longer than the instrument’s actual scale length, thereby ‘flattening’ its pitch. The amount that each string is made longer (flattened) depends on that strings size – thin strings not much and getting progressively more as the strings get thicker. Clever, eh?
To nicely illustrate it, this is why acoustic saddles are angled – the sounding length of the thicker, wound strings is actually longer than that of the thinner strings.
Many guitars have adjustable bridges and/or string saddles to allow each string’s compensation be accurately set. Setting the compensation is referred to as ‘intonating‘ the instrument and the compensation overall can be called ‘intonation‘. .
How you work out the measuring point on the saddles will be different, depending on what sort of bridge you are using. You may have to move the bridge or neck slightly to get it right. Be wary of any gaps in the neck/body join, though. You need a tight fit for a good transfer.
Square the Neck
The first step to having a square neck is to identify some points of reference on the neck and body of the guitar. You are looking for a couple of points that are square to the centreline of the body, and equally on either side of the centreline. It might be the nust slot on the neck; it might be a pickup rout on the body; it might be the string through-body holes on a Tele, or pivot screws on a Strat or Floyd. They must be square- for example, the bridge on a LP style body won’t be any good because it’s at an angle.
This is crucial. Again, attention to detail is paramount!
Here’s one I prepared earlier… Ignore that this guitar is finished.

There are four points we will refer to. Let's call them A and B on either side of the nut, and Y and Z on either side of the pickup rout in this case- maybe a corner of the rout. It has to be a small point because you are trying to be precise, as you will see. I stick in pins at the points I want to use to measure.

The first measurement we take is A to Y, and B to Z. If they are the same, the neck is at the correct angle compared to the body. If they are not, then the neck is pointed towards the measured shorter side.

The next measurements taken are A to Z and B to Y. If these are the same, then the neck is on the body centreline. If they are not, then the neck is straight out from the body, but not on centre. The neck needs to be moved- if A to Z is shorter, the neck needs to be moved to the A-Y side. The other reason that these measurements might be out is that the neck is twisted, but that is not going to happen with a Pit Bull kit.
Setting the Neck Angle (or Inclination)
There is nothing worse than playing a guitar with the wrong inclination- the angle that the neck meets the body, when that angle suits the bridge that is being used. In this case, close enough is good enough because you have a few adjustments that can be made after the guitar is finished. These adjustments include the truss rod, the bridge and the nut.
So, how to do it? It is as simple as the other steps. Set the neck in the body, install the bridge with the saddles about half height, and the pickups (or pickguard if the pickups are mounted in it).
Run your now favourite piece of string from both e-string slots on the nut to the saddles on the bridge. Check out the gaps between string and fretboard at the 12th fret and at the last fret. There should be a reasonable gap. Remember though that the string tension and truss rod will affect the finished neck. Remember, this is one of the rare cases a case where near enough is good enough.
If the inclination is too shallow, the action will be too high; if it is too steep, the strings will be rubbing across the frets. In both cases, it is worthwhile taking time to get a reasonably good angle set up now, to reduce the adjustment required later.
IMPORTANT!!! This goes for most things in life- do not use up all your adjustment during the initial setup! To do so means you have a really, REALLY bad setup.
EVEN MORE IMPORTANT!!! Don’t go hacking at your new guitar to get everything right. If the neck angle seems wrong, it probably isn’t. Stop, have your favourite non-alcoholic beverage, watch the football, and come back later.
If it turns out that the neck is not sitting right, DO NOT GO HACKING AT THE GUITAR! A small amount of hack will have a huge change at the business end of the guitar. If you are convinced that there needs to be a physical change, use a shim to make the change. To make the shim, I recommend a sheet of paper and some spray-on epoxy. Spray the paper until it is wet through, LET IT DRY COMPLETELY so it doesn’t stick to the neck and is as hard as it can be so you don’t squash it. Squashing it sort of defeats the point of it.
Cut a piece or two as wide as the neck pocket and 12-20mm long. If the neck is too shallow, put it at the body end of the neck pocket. If it is too steep, put it at the nut end. If that is not enough to fix it, then you have bad or mismatched components. Of course, one of the advantages to a Pitbull guitar is that it is made to fit together well!
In summary, every time you move the neck, you need to redo all three measurements. You’ll find, however, that you’ll quickly pick up the groove, and it will only take three or four processes to get the neck right. And lastly, don’t be afraid to pencil the neck to give some guidance to get it back into the same spot after the body is finished.

[SA_Brad]

Thanks Gav, they were the instructions I followed during the build.

I believe I have rectified the problem by cranking the truss rod anti clockwise more than I have ever adjusted one in the past. I suspected incorrect installation of the neck, hence the name of the thread.

The thing I don't get is that the neck itself had the 'warp' . With a straight rule resting flat on all frets from 22 down, it wasn't until about fret 6 that it bowed to the point you can see in the photos. So it had no reference to its relation to the body, I could have done that with the neck off the body. Is this normal? I would have thought a brand new neck would have been flat or maybe a slight back bow anticipating the string tension to bring it back.

With the cranking of the truss it is better, but I would still like a bit more relief in the neck as there really isn't much. It has bought it back to just beyond flat. I am thinking I'll leave it for a week or so and let the timber settle then see if I can get another turn on the truss which should be spot on for my liking.

Thanks a lot everyone.

I'll let you know how it goes in a week or two.