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Thread: Andy40's Mojotone Tweed Deluxe build diary

  1. #71
    GAStronomist DrNomis_44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy40 View Post
    Yep you are right Doc.
    Look the instructions require you to check certain voltages before you plug valves in.
    Then check voltages after the rectifier (5Y3 - yes you are right) but as you pointed out it was heaps higher without any of the other valves plugged in.
    Once the others and the speaker was plugged in the voltages were pretty good.

    I muffed the Normal jacks somehow, I think I have a old solder joint there somewhere. I'm going to discharge the CAPS and fix it later or tomorrow when the wife's around.

    A few questions for you doc:

    I think I read somewhere that you have build some kind of bleeder that will bleed the caps to ground when you turn the amp off? or did I make that up?

    I think i'm going to place an order for replacement valves from Evatco and another slow blow fuse, what brand of valves would you buy?
    Its currently got JJ's in it

    Yes, you can make a special bleeder-probe to discharge the supply filter caps after you turn the amp off and completely disconnect it from the mains by un-plugging it, you can make a bleeder by attaching a resistor to a piece of wooden dowel, and then solder a piece of wire with an alligator-clip to one end of the resistor, the other end can either be attached to a small nail driven into the end of the wooden dowel or used as is, when you use the bleeder-probe to discharge the caps, the alligator-clip is clipped onto a convenient place on the chassis of the amp, which is normally securely tied to ground, the other end of the bleeder-resistor is touched to the positive terminals of the caps, I need to make a bleeder-probe since I'm going to be doing some amp-building work next year, I just found a piece of 8mm Oak doweling that I could use to make a bleeder-probe, dry-wood is a good electrical insulator, but you can also use a piece of PVC piping cut to a suitable length, a bleeder-probe is a handy piece of equipment to have when it comes to servicing a valve amp.

    What I like to do while I'm discharging supply filter caps is to use a digital multimeter to monitor the voltage as I discharge the caps so I know that there aren't any dangerous voltages lurking in the amp circuits I'm working on.

    Maybe I could start a thread about making a bleeder-probe, as I think it would prove to be quite useful.

    When you choose a resistor for bleeding supply filter caps, you should pick a resistance value that's high enough so that you don't get a big spark when you touch it to the positive terminal of the cap, but low enough so that it bleeds-off the voltage quickly enough, you could probably use any value from about 10k to maybe 220k, and a power rating of maybe 1 Watt to 5 Watts, Marcel might be able to suggest a suitable resistance and power-rating for a bleeder resistor.


    I've heard that JJ's are supposed to be a good brand of valves, although I've never tried them....yet, I've got a couple of Genelec E83CC Gold Lion gold-pin preamp valves installed in my Marshall MA100C amp and I think they are pretty good, although they did cost me about Au$50.00 each, I guess it really depends on how much you are willing to spend on valves, I personally wouldn't buy cheap valves since you never know when they'll go bad, and usually with no warning, Electroharmonix are supposed to be pretty decent, as are Sovteks, I read somewhere that Mullards are supposed to be some of the best valves you can buy but they tend to be pretty expensive, Shugangs are supposed to be good too, new old-stock RCA's are supposed to be pretty good too, generally, pretty much all the brands of valves that Evatco stock are good.

    I've got a couple of Trigon 6SN7GT octal-base twin-triode valves that seem to be pretty good, and I just remembered that i happen to have one American-made General Electric 6V6GT valve in my stash of valves, I might use it to make a Fender Champ one day.


    Anyway, I personally would try and buy the best quality brand of valves I could afford for any of my valve amps, depending on my budget, the better the quality of the tube/valve, the more expensive it's going to be, some audiophile-grade valves, like a new old-stock vintage 300B audio power-triode can cost quite a bit of money.


    There's nothing wrong with doing what's called "Tube/Valve-rolling" which is basically trying tubes or valves of different brands in your amp till you find a brand that works for you.


    Some of the valves in my stash of valves were scrounged from some defunct electronic equipment, I remember one time when I was studying electronics at uni in the mid 90's, they were getting rid of some unwanted stuff, and I managed to score myself a big box of miscellaneous valves for nothing but my time, including quite a few AWA brand 6CA7 valves, which are equivalent to EL34s, they were still in their original cardboard boxes, unused, wish I still had them now, there were also quite a few 12AU7As and 12AT7s, as well as 12AX7s, really kicking myself now that I didn't bring them with me when I moved to Darwin in 2000.


    Going back to the bleeder-resistor, some valve amps, like Marshalls and Fenders, have a bleeder resistor permanently soldered in, in parallel with the power supply filter caps, this does two things I can think of, firstly, the resistors equalize the voltage across two electrolytic caps if the caps are placed in series to double the working-voltage of the cap, have a look at the power supply circuit of a Fender Twin and see if you can spot the two caps in series with the bleeder resistors connected in parallel, the resistors will be something like 220k in value, the two series-connected supply filter caps will usually be placed after the standby switch, the second thing that the bleeder resistors do is to bleed-off the voltage when the amp is powered-down as part of a safety feature, but it's always a good idea to check that there aren't any dangerous voltages remaining in the amp after it has been powered-down and completely disconnected from the mains supply, since bleeder resistors have been known to fail.
    Last edited by DrNomis_44; 30-12-2019 at 04:22 PM.

  2. #72
    Overlord of Music dave.king1's Avatar
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    If you are making your own probe please shrink wrap it leaving only the tip to prevent unintentional shorts.

    When I was in college a lifetime ago it was just a matter of shorting the cap with a screwdriver, brutal but effective and not recommended today.

    Back then transistors were the future and ICs didn't exist ( who remembers hole theory for current flow )

  3. #73
    GAStronomist DrNomis_44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.king1 View Post
    If you are making your own probe please shrink wrap it leaving only the tip to prevent unintentional shorts.

    When I was in college a lifetime ago it was just a matter of shorting the cap with a screwdriver, brutal but effective and not recommended today.

    Back then transistors were the future and ICs didn't exist ( who remembers hole theory for current flow )

    Yep, good idea and I certainly will do that, cheers!!!

  4. #74
    GAStronomist Simon Barden's Avatar
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    My amp tech (a chap I've started using this year for my Sound City amp head rebuild) recommends Sovtek valves. JJ are OK, but not as good as they were, and I know as a result that Blackstar stopped fitting them as standard a couple of years ago. But if they work and the amp's not noisy, and there are no microphonic or rattling valves, then there's really no point in replacing them for the sake of it.

  5. #75
    GAStronomist DrNomis_44's Avatar
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    I agree with what Simon said, if the JJs are working fine and aren't microphonic then there's no real need to swap them out, you can test each valve to see if they are microphonic by gently tapping the glass envelope with a pencil and listening for any ringing coming through the speaker, if a valve is microphonic it will tend to ring if it is gently tapped, some valves won't ring much and you might just hear a slight "tink" when the valve is gently tapped, some will ring a lot and be very sensitive to the point where you'll hear something coming through the speaker that sounds like feedback, generally the valve that has the first two triode gain-stages in it will be more susceptible to being microphonic, sometimes a power valve will become microphonic.

    When a valve becomes microphonic it's usually caused by the internal electrodes becoming a bit loose in their mountings, this can happen when the valve is made at the factory, or it can happen over time from vibrations from the speaker, or when the amp is transported in a car.

    One scenario where I would definitely swap out the valves is if one of the power valves starts to develop a red or orange glow on the plate, this is known as red-plating, I'd swap the valves if I'm absolutely certain that the bias circuit is working correctly and set to the correct bias voltage, there are no leaky coupling caps, all the socket pins are making good contact, and there are no other causes, like a shorted output transformer primary-winding, I would suspect a faulty power valve.


    If you see a blue flourescence, or glow, inside the glass envelope of the power valves when the amp is fully powered-up, that's normal, if you see a lilac or pinkish glow inside the glass envelope of the rectifier valve, and the silver getter is turning a whitish colour, then it means that air has gotten inside it and the rectifier valve definitely needs replacing.


    A preamp valve that has excessive hum should definitely be replaced.
    Last edited by DrNomis_44; 30-12-2019 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #76
    GAStronomist Simon Barden's Avatar
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    There are in fact only three factories making guitar valves. Everything else is badging. Interesting read:

    https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/valve-supplier/

  7. #77
    Overlord of Music Andy40's Avatar
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    Wow, what a fantastic response guys. Thanks so much.

    Alright, I've got a bleeder probe. - stewmac has a "snuffer stick" that uses two 56k resistors in series.

    The permanent bleeder as a mod was the thing I was thinking.

    Anyway I'll have a go a trouble shooting this morning. If I have issues with the voltages, I'll post them.
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  8. #78
    GAStronomist DrNomis_44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy40 View Post
    Wow, what a fantastic response guys. Thanks so much.

    Alright, I've got a bleeder probe. - stewmac has a "snuffer stick" that uses two 56k resistors in series.

    The permanent bleeder as a mod was the thing I was thinking.

    Anyway I'll have a go a trouble shooting this morning. If I have issues with the voltages, I'll post them.

    No worries at all, I'm only too happy to help out whenever I can, hope all the troubleshooting goes well and you end up with great sounding amp that works as it should, two 56k resistors in series (that gives a total value of about 112k) should work fine for discharging the power supply filter caps.
    Last edited by DrNomis_44; 31-12-2019 at 07:43 AM.

  9. #79
    Mentor Marcel's Avatar
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    As Doc said, you can fit a permanent bleed resistor on the HT line, and on my amp builds I always do.

    My go to is typically a 470k 1W from HT to ground at any convenient location. Often that will be near the main filter caps. If the HT voltage is around 300VDC then a 470k will draw about 0.6mA and develop 0.2W of heat .. On a 600VDC HT rail I will put a 1M 1W resistor which will draw again about 0.6mA but will develop about 0.4W of heat... (E=I*R, P=I2*R)

    Remember that the entire HT rail is connected by a DC path so putting a 470k resistor on the common HT distribution point of the preamp stage (where voltages are often around 300VDC) is just as effective as a 1M on the main filter cap (where on larger amps can be in the 600VDC range), only difference is the ultimate safe discharge time with the resistor on the preamp is it will take near twice or four times as long....

    One must always remember too that the permanently fitted bleed resistor is drawing current, which may change some HT rails nominal voltage. On a Marshall design the step down resistors for each stage from power amp stage to preamp are cascaded (or in series if you prefer), so that extra 0.6mA of essentially wasted HT power will draw down the HT power available to the preamp should you put the bleed resistor there. An extra 0.6mA going through those two typically 10k HT dropping resistors that feed V1 and V2 may not sound like much but it can change the whole character of the Amp for the better or the worse, so be aware

    Doc's clip on 56k is great as it will get rid of most of the charge on those filter caps pretty quick, and render the amp fairly safe in a short time to allow a safe servicing environment. But resist the temptation of fitting a 56k 5W resistor permanently..... 56k at 450VDC is 8mA which is a significant percentage of what most guitar amp HT power supplies can create in the first place, and with 3.6W of pure heat being generated from this one resistor inside the amp case is simply a waste of energy. In the case of a Blues Junior amp from Fender the HT supply can at best only give around 120mA so 8mA is theft of near 10% of the amplifiers potential noise with nil benefit to the player...
    Last edited by Marcel; 31-12-2019 at 07:57 AM.

  10. #80
    GAStronomist DrNomis_44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel View Post
    As Doc said, you can fit a permanent bleed resistor on the HT line, and on my amp builds I always do.

    My go to is typically a 470k 1W from HT to ground at any convenient location. Often that will be near the main filter caps. If the HT voltage is around 300VDC then a 470k will draw about 0.6mA and develop 0.2W of heat .. On a 600VDC HT rail I will put a 1M 1W resistor which will draw again about 0.6mA but will develop about 0.4W of heat... (E=I*R, P=I2*R)

    Remember that the entire HT rail is connected by a DC path so putting a 470k resistor on the common HT distribution point of the preamp stage (where voltages are often around 300VDC) is just as effective as a 1M on the main filter cap (where on larger amps can be in the 600VDC range), only difference is the ultimate safe discharge time with the resistor on the preamp is it will take near twice or four times as long....

    One must always remember too that the permanently fitted bleed resistor is drawing current, which may change some HT rails nominal voltage. On a Marshall design the step down resistors for each stage from power amp stage to preamp are cascaded (or in series if you prefer), so that extra 0.6mA of essentially wasted HT power will draw down the HT power available to the preamp should you put the bleed resistor there. An extra 0.6mA going through those two typically 10k HT dropping resistors that feed V1 and V2 may not sound like much but it can change the whole character of the Amp for the better or the worse, so be aware

    Doc's clip on 56k is great as it will get rid of most of the charge on those filter caps pretty quick, and render the amp fairly safe in a short time to allow a safe servicing environment. But resist the temptation of fitting a 56k 5W resistor permanently..... 56k at 450VDC is 8mA which is a significant percentage of what most guitar amp HT power supplies can create in the first place, and with 3.6W of pure heat being generated from this one resistor inside the amp case is simply a waste of energy. In the case of a Blues Junior amp from Fender the HT supply can at best only give around 120mA so 8mA is theft of near 10% of the amplifiers potential noise with nil benefit to the player...


    Yep, a typical 12AX7 triode gain-stage as found in a Fender or Marshall amp tends to draw about .005 mA of current, that's 5 micro-amps (or maybe as much as 1mA depending on the values of the cathode and anode resistors since they determine the maximum saturation current) from the power supply when it is fully turned-on or saturated (going by what I've seen looking at a characteristic graph of a 12AX7 in a valve manual) assuming that the plate voltage is from about 250VC to 300V DC (the 12AX7 is designed to work with plate voltages of a maximum of 300V DC) , 8mA is significantly more current than .005mA so I can see why it would change the character of the amp, due to loading effects.


    Sorry if I'm going off on a bit of a technical-tangent here.
    Last edited by DrNomis_44; 31-12-2019 at 09:04 AM.

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