Hi all,
Just a quick start up for my JB4, which is still on the wait list. Looking forward to any comments and tips on this build diary. Looked over a few of the builds with very impressive results, upgrades for bridges and pickups, great tips. Thanks again will get this puppy started shortly. Any advice on using dyes and stains for Ash will be greatly appreciated.
Staining is not my forte. So, please take that into account ;-) I have one successful stain job, and I think that was partly just luck. I also have a solid color guitar because sometimes luck can also be bad. If you are using a water based stain (or any water based product) raise the grain first and prep sand down to 180 grit with open grained woods (like ash) and 220 with closed grain woods (like maple). The exception is on the end grain where you might want to use 220 or even a bit finer on open grain wood to keep it from getting too dark.
I used a dye stain on mine which can blotch pretty easily on open grain wood. I used a General Finishes dye stain, and the mfg says on open grain wood you can mix a bit of their clear top coat to reduce the risk of blotchiness. Not a guarantee, however, and GF now recommends using their water based wood stain rather than water based *dye* stain instead. In the case of dye stain GF recommends staining first. With regular stain they say you can use conditioner with open grain woods... The problem with conditioner/sealers is that they will reduce the color depth of your stain, but also reduce the risk of blotchiness. Greater of depth of color without the conditioner/sealer coat..but blotchiness is always a risk. I think I got lucky on mine. The only real blotchiness was under the pickguard.
I managed to get a very flat finish on ash, but it meant using a A LOT of grain filler. I used Aqua Coat on both my stained (paulownia--which is ever more open grain than ash) and on a solid color ash body. Aqua Coat is clear, and works great over stain, over filler, even over lightly painted areas when you realize you've missed some spots...in my case a lot of spots. It's not cheap, but it is super versatile. A pint of it is enough for at least three or four bodies.
Ok thanks for the input, but getting on with the dyes, I was advised to firstly dampen the ash down, not soaking it but a wipe over with a damp cloth to highlight any build up of glues or existing dents etc. Allow to dry, this will likely raise the grain, then use alcohol based dye before then using stains. This process pulls the dye into the grain and the stain then ensures the full body color. Alcohol based dyes dosent raise the grain where water based does. This is what Ive read up on so far. I have 4 pieces of Europian Ash samples I will use these to experiment with before I do anything with the body of the bass. Hopefully come up with best way to go.
Sounds like a good plan. Experimenting with some similar wood is always a good idea. I think I may have used a mist spray rather than a damp cloth, but your plan sounds good for raising the grain. I have heard the same as you about alcohol not raising the grain, but I haven't used it. I think it can still blotch...so good that you'll do some experimenting firs
Dye vs Stain: Definitely experiment on your wood samples!
I'm not sure on the differences between dye and stain (I did look on google and it seems to make sense!).
I built 2 STA-1HT kits last year. Both were given a coat of ebony timbermate to highlight (and raise) the grain.
The first was finished with red alcohol ink.
The second was finished with green water based dye.
The link is https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post221745.
Both ended up with visible grain patterns on both. The body with water based dye was rougher - I assumed the grain raised even more.
This year I have tried one (without the timbermate and it was not watered down first!) with a coat of the water based dye only. This was very rough and needed quite a bit of sanding. Note - I would not try this again!
I have experimented a bit with sanding sealer (oil based and shellac (alcohol based)) before the stain - but have not had success with the dyes or stains taking afterwards!
PitBull Builds: FVB-4, LP-1SS, FBM-1, AG-2, TB-4, SSCM-1, TLA-1,TL-1TB, STA-1HT, DSCM-1 Truckster, ST-1, STA-1, MBM-1, MBM custom, GHR-1 (Resonator).
Scratch Builds: Pine Explorer, Axe Bass, Mr Scary, Scratchy Tele's.
The little voices in my head keep telling me "build more guitars"
Like any stains or dyes, from what ive read up on. Prepare the timber first, in that, not using wood grain fillers but to eliminate any faults or seen faults without sanding too far, ie. into veneers so that you sand through the surface. My understanding is once you have prepped the timber, to use the dye, to embed the color, allow to dry and coat again to deepen or accent the color till desired bland is reached. Using the Stain is a secondary process or as mention wood grain filler in the same color as the dye. Then light surface sand to remove anything sitting up, smoothing the grain down. This depends on what effect you want such as raised grain timber look or a smooth polished finish. Dyes are used to create stains so the dyes are the basis.
You certainly got some nice outcomes on your green and red stains!Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
From what I have been able to glean here on on mfg websites, dye stains are pretty much always mixed with alcohol or water and are designed to maximally penetrate the surface of the wood. Many seem to be dyes (as for clothing) that are used as stains on wood. There are also dye stains that (like from General Finishes) that are only used as wood stains. I don't think there is any universal rule about this, but I think that non-dye stains, for the most part, are designed not to soak in quite so much to bare wood, and some are even often designed to stick to other preparations like filler, sanding sealer, or top coats. From some mfg's there are also "gel stains." I think that, for the most part, these are more viscous than other stains, and designed to go over the top of other stained/finished items to change.* The mfg I mostly use, General Finishes, seems to recommend using their dye stain on closed grain woods, and either their non-dye stain or their gel stain on open grain woods to avoid blotchiness.
I have also seen people "stain with paint" by spraying a thin, translucent color over prepared wood. I think this is the way factories often do it.
Having said all this, I also think there may not be hard and fast rules for what products are named. That's one reason that you'll often seem me inquire about the mfg of finishes. I am not sure how comparable one brand's product name is to another.
*I have, however used a "gel stain" called Craftnique that is very thin, and seems just like a dye stain when used on bare wood, but will stick to finished surfaces. I have used it to alter or deepen a color from a dye stain.
Thanks Trevor, will investigate the gel stains as you suggest, I mean I could just use a lot of available ready to go timber stains, which work fine for a lot of this type of work, which up until now I could just as well do, and I may have to. My next question is the finishes, surface coatings, all my guitars have the same smooth polished surface effect, which is the norm for what I would say 100% of the time. I just want something a little different with a bit of personal pow to it. I have to be very careful here, over funding is not my specialty.
Thanks for the input, I have my samples and did a little testing today. The samples of course are wafer thin veneers around the size of A4 paper sheet, cut the first sheet into 4 so to test the different colors. I was talking to one of the sales women at the local arts store who supply dye powders. The type you would do tie dying (fabrics) with, so would normally be mixed with water to make it up, she suggested to mix it with isopropyl pure alcohol, which I am yet to aquired but instead tried mixing it with pure gum turpentine, which is the base for making polishes. I did one sample coat, which kept the veneer flat and took the color ok while applying it, wasnt a very deep color tone being the first coat, but while drying color returned to a dusty consistency on the surface and didnt sink into the veneer at all. So that's test one, obviously not the way to go, the powder looked to have mixed with the turpentine ok but didn't bite in on the drying. I mixed a little with water and it saturated the next test piece which curled up and was next to impossible to unwrap without it shattering. Phase 2 will be in a couple of days.
We’d normally recommend looking for glue patches/spots using metho/meths or turpentine or white spirit (some country-specific terms for these products) as these don’t raise the grain like water does, but work in the same way i.e. the wood absorbs the liquid but the glue doesn’t, creating a noticeable colour difference.
Glue is generally only a problem with the kits that have veneer or binding, as (from out experience) the factory workers take little care over wiping off excess glue, or not picking up bodies with glue on their fingers, or not applying too much glue, that can then seep right through the thin veneer in places.
But it’s still worth checking multi-piece non-veneer bodies along the glue lines just to check there aren’t any glue-filled gaps that won’t take any stain.
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