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Request: Photos of Glue Spots.
I raised the issue of glue spots (again) when I met with our supplier recently.
There is some difficulty in the language barrier, so they have asked for some photos of glue spots, if we have any
I know I've seen some on the Forum, does anyone have any they can send to me?
Hey Ads,
this is a build from 2013 but it's still valid, a PRS-1S with spalted maple veneer, you can even see the glue spots on the raw body out of the box the darker areas.
You can clearly see the glue spots when the stain is on.
Basically any kit with a veneer the factory have to set a rule that once the veneer is glued on the factory workers should remove gloves or put fresh gloves on and minimise touching the bodies. Looks like my body they have wiped their gluey hands over the veneer to clean their hands !
I am also glad my bursts have improved from 4 years ago too haha
There's Kick's LP-1MQ with a very visible glue line right round the edge and down the centre line (its also got an off-centre join).
http://www.webferrets.nl/images/other/kit/23.jpg
http://www.webferrets.nl/images/other/kit/24.jpg
Which looks more like seepage up from below rather than gluey fingers.
I think the veneer is so thin that the glue pushes through it as they are usually around the edges where perhaps a die or template presses down
Thanks Simon! I read this topic at 05:15 this morning before leaving for work and my plan was to post some pics when I got home.
Indeed these are the very clear pics of what I ran into and hopefully Adam can use these as well to make sure that the overall quality (and qualtity checks!) are going up a level.
@Dedman: totally agree with your thoughts ;)
One thing; I'm very happy with my kit but I'd like to have seen a glueless top with a perfect center join of the beautiful quilted maple. Unfortunately it isn't....
I think there's a mixture of both. Some spots are clearly on the top and can be easily removed with nothing underneath. Other spots are all the way through the wood.
Here's an older one as well. Haven't done a veneer guitar for a while.
BP
Oooh, that was a bad one, Brendan! Looks mainly like seepage through the veneer on that one.
Too bad man... It must have been a real bummer when you noticed this :(
Thank you chaps, very helpful. I will send these pics to the Factory now.
Once solution they have offered to the "Thin Veneer" issue... Double veneer. That is, they actually apply two thin layers of veneer onto the body.
Would this work? I imagine if you sanded through the top layer, you would hit the under layer that may have a different pattern/colour to the top layer. However, usually these "sand through" areas are quite small, so maybe it would work.
Thoughts?
Hey Ads, maybe ask if they can cut a thicker veneer (or ask their veneer supplier) would be better than gluing 2 thin veneers together, plus would be more time consuming for the factory you would have to glue one veneer at a time and make sure the centre line is lined up. If they are about 0.6mm thick now I think a 1-1.2mm thick veneer would be ideal and save alot of sand throughs and glue seepage
Most sand through-issues seem to be as a result of glue spots, though a few seem to be from trying to remove scratches in the veneer. Gluing a second veneer on top of the first would still give the same problem with glue seepage through the wood. And as you said Adam, any sand-through of the first layer will expose a different veneer pattern.
Is it a cost or technical issue that stops them wanting to use a thicker veneer? Have they tried other glues that are less likely to seep through the wood?
I agree with Wokkaboy and Simon. I'd prefer a thiker veneer over two layers of thin veneer.
Besides the extra cost and time of applying two thin layers I think the overall quality of the veneer wil be less. And veneer is softer than the mahogony so the top could be damaged more easily.
Other glue could also be a solution.
Seems the problem isn't the glue spots themselves, but the wearing through veneer to remove them.
If the veneer were thicker, then removing glue spots wouldn't be such a show-stopper.
Then take the machine-head drill off of Freddy Krueger and voila!!
cheers, Mark.
I've had no glue spots on any of mine...soz
Thanks.
Yes, we have asked them for the past 4 years for a thicker veneer and it just doesn't seem possible... for them.
I guess it's their supplier who is refusing to come to the party.
We'll keep pushing them though.
This photo evidence will help our case.
This one on an IB-7 from a little time ago
Attachment 18865
And for a little variety some excess glue from binding running down the inside back on a FS-1, some on the outside but seems to have cleaned up with Goof-off. (Used the torch to make it easier to see in pics)
Attachment 18866
Someone was so proud they decided to sign their work, through both f-holes.
Attachment 18867Attachment 18868
Grant
Quote:
Originally Posted by king casey
na I don't sand veneer tops at all and they are there from the start, I've removed a couple of small marks with goof off but generally have no joy and end up painting over them.
But isn't that a waiste of nice veneer and a spoil in your fun of creating a good looking guitar?
@Adam: you mentioned that you met another kit supplier in Germany. How are their kits in comparison with your current supplier?
I doubt Adam will know until he's sent a few samples and DB has a look at them for him. At any trade show, they are only going to take their best examples along, so you really need to see some off-the-shelf kits taken at random to see the average level of construction..
You are absolutely right Simon. We just wait and see...
Yes, I think it's best to work with the supplier we've had a good relationship with for 5 years, rather than switch now and risk unknown issues from them.
I will definitely be getting some samples from the 2 suppliers who have really impressed me; with kits and finished guitars. However, this won't be until very late this year as all our funds are committed.
My 2c worth on the glue issue is to convince the manufacturer to change the glue from the white to a contact type of glue for the veneers.
This is the only way I can see this issue being resolved.
DB,
For crying out loud, stop bringing logic into this.
:)
It should be possible to put something that shows up under UV light into the glue, so that after the veneer's on and it's stuck down, they can run a UV light over it to see the glue spots clearly and either remove them at the factory or reject the body if there's too much glue to make them good. It would also allow PBG to easily check the kits when they arrive at the warehouse.
If they have to start rejecting a lot of bodies at source, it might be a big incentive for them to improve their build technique.
It is not just glue spots on veneered tops but also the amount of filler they sometimes use too.
On my 1st & 2nd explorer basswood bodies there was lots of filler that took forever to be sanded away and it stood out like dogs $#@! being a much darker colour compared to the pale blonde shade most commonly found on basswood.
On the EX-5 filler near the neck pocket had to stay but it was a pain to get any stain to take and still showed up after multiple stain coats as nothing else could be done to hide it other than a solid paint colour.
Attachment 18914Attachment 18915Attachment 18916Attachment 18917
Congrats with your post nr. 3000 ;)
Hello Adam, as in my welcome post I am new to PBG and will be ordering LPM-1 and the ES-3 and my biggest concern is the glue spots Im reading of. Is this common from the supplier? will PBG warranty any bodies? I can easily check the body before any finish is applied for any problem spots using mineral spirits for example but would hate to be stuck with a body that can not be finished as desired. Thx
Gary - Adam has a very fair warranty on anything sold through Pitbull guitars - having spoken with him numerous times. Check out https://www.pitbullguitars.com/refund-policy/ . If you have specific questions - best bet is to email adamboyle at pitbullguitars dot com otherwise PM him through the forum or Facebook. This forum can be quite active and he might miss a post.
Old photo of the recovery - still working on the neck - so no as con photos as yet :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Hi, glue spots have been a problem and it's an issue with any kit with a veneer, from all suppliers in this price range.
We have worked hard with our factory on this and have seen a marked improvement in the veneered kits coming through in the most recent shipments.
We also check every kit carefully before we ship it to the customer.
I can honestly say we get very few returns now.
And, as Brendan says, our warranty is very fair and we always favour the customer. so yes, you are fully covered.
That said, our terms do say:
"If you only read a few paragraphs of our Terms and Conditions, please read the following before making your purchase:Our guitar kits are not “Ikea Guitars” that you simply paint and assemble; they are the raw, unfinished product from a factory that produces guitars for some of the world’s best known brands.
...
Please understand that your kit may have the odd scratch, dent, mark or glue spot you have to deal with as part of your build. You may even find small cracks or other imperfections, which can be filled with no effect on the guitar’s appearance or sound. We are unable to guarantee flawless, blemish free kits at these prices. If you find a fault, like a significant crack, which cannot easily be repaired, please contact us for a return for a repair, replacement or refund."
Hope this helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garybrayguitars
Gary, the ES-3 uses an all-basswood ply construction for the body, so you are very unlikely to encounter any glue spots on that kit as there's no veneer. The LPM-1 is the only kit you are ordering that may have some issues, but any glue is generally removable. Always do thorough wetting check first (with turps, white spirit or methylated spirit) and look for light areas, and then use a propriety glue remover like Goof-Off on any glue you find.
Sorry for bringing up this old post. One of the guys mentioned the same thing on my recent post about veneer tops and using metho to reveal any glue spots. Could the metho weaken the glue that bonds the veneer to the body?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Any solvent could potentially effect the adhesive if applied in superfluous amounts. However, common sense rules here. The amount of metho (or any chosen solvent) should only be what comes off of a dampened rag/cloth, not a overly saturated or dripping wet rag/cloth.Quote:
Could the metho weaken the glue that bonds the veneer to the body?
The only scenario I can think of otherwise would be if someone has already sanded the veneer to the point of near sand-through or actual sand-through. Even then, I think it would require significant saturation of solvent in that area to start dissolving the adhesive.
Thinking the same re: saturation of the timber. Thanks Mc Creed.