Intonation and scale length issues on a Telecaster build

Hi folks, been tweaking a couple of my most recent builds after letting them settle for past month or so from the initial setup and finding the last one is becoming a problem child.

Straight up I should mention it is non PBG and bought at the DIY closing down sale. Problem number 1 was the cheap and nasty plastic nut that came as standard where some of the unwound strings either buzzed like a sitar or sounded rather dull/muted/dead? Solution was to buy a pre slotted bone nut from Real Parts however once thickness was sanded down to same size it seemed to sit a bit too low, particularly on the high E side causing me to wind those bridge saddles up really high to remove fret buzzing. Neck is dead flat as that is how I like them and was hoping for a much lower action than where things are at.

Thought I must have scored a dud bone nut and had overlooked a brass one initially and ordered one hoping that it would solve the height problem. Sadly there was not much difference but I really like the brighter tone on open stringed notes.

Tuning and intonating this thing has been a pain as when using a tuner it gets all the strings in tune however when using harmonics to check the tuning it sounds out as does the usual 5th fret to next open string method? Open to 12th Octave and octave harmonics were done and re-checked and as close as you can get on the standard 3 saddle Tele bridge. Got me wondering is this why a lot of Rolling Stones stuff sounds out of tune? Is it because you cannot truly intonate a Tele?

Went online and found a Fret position calculator on the Stew Mac site and came up with the following results:
11th = 304 vs 304.734mm
12th = 323 vs 324.000mm
13th = 341 vs 342.185mm
14th = 358 vs 359.349mm
15th = 374.5 vs 375.550mm
16th = 390 vs 390.841mm
17th = 404 vs 405.274mm
18th = 390 vs 390.841mm
19th = 430 vs 431.759mm
20th = 442.5 vs 443.893mm
21st = 454 vs 455.348
Nut to high E = 651mm
Nut to G = 652mm
Nut to low E = 654mm

Would being 1mm out at the 12th - 21st frets be the culprit and the string lengths seem a bit long too as I would have expected it to be around 646mm on the high E? Would this small difference in tolerances be causing root chords plus others played anywhere up to 5th position to sound slightly out of tune?

I have earlier tonight just ordered a replacement 6 saddle bridge from Real Parts as that should assist with intonating strings individually. Just wondering if I need to also consider ordering a new neck unless someone can advise whether this is normal and nothing to worry about.

Looking forward to your advice.

Thanks, Waz

Hmmmm, all I am hearing is crickets chirping on this topic???

Would have hoped a knowledgeable person would have dropped in by now to add something......suppose I will have to wait a bit longer, can't rush these things and thankfully still have a few other fiddly bits on other axes to keep me occupied.

Hi Waz. Just saw this post. Although I am not the droid you are looking for.

It looks like the total scale length (around the 651mm mark is quite long?

My TLA-1R had a total scale length of 626mm after putting in the wilkinson bridge and putting in the longer intonation screws (PGB standard) and winding them all the way forward. I have a lot of latitude to tune the intonation with the longer screws. when i did the mock build, I thought it would be harder to intonate with the vintage 3 saddles but I had no problems.

Not sure if it helps but when I put the bone nut on my LP-1SS and I didn't get the right height I could tune the guitar but when I played open chords it was out of tune and the intonation was not right. I've got a Dingobass F style bone nut in my TLA-1R and had no problems when i set the height right.

Not sure if all that babble helps you much.

Waz, just surfaced from a manic day and read your post. Intonation on a 3 saddle tele especially where the saddles are not compensated is more of a compromise than anything else. I've found they are better intonated by ear than electronic tuning device.

An interesting read on the subject...

http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/th...dge-intonation

If you cannot live with the compromised intonation the single saddle bridge will help immensely, I have such bridge on a modern flunder tele and its dead easy to intonate

Thanks Ponch. I will give that a go before the 6 saddle replacement arrives in the mail.

Would the slight difference in fret measurements also be contributing? It only became noticeable as a measurement from around 10th fret and upwards?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy40

Hi Waz. Just saw this post. Although I am not the droid you are looking for.

It looks like the total scale length (around the 651mm mark is quite long?

My TLA-1R had a total scale length of 626mm after putting in the wilkinson bridge and putting in the longer intonation screws (PGB standard) and winding them all the way forward. I have a lot of latitude to tune the intonation with the longer screws. when i did the mock build, I thought it would be harder to intonate with the vintage 3 saddles but I had no problems.

Not sure if it helps but when I put the bone nut on my LP-1SS and I didn't get the right height I could tune the guitar but when I played open chords it was out of tune and the intonation was not right. I've got a Dingobass F style bone nut in my TLA-1R and had no problems when i set the height right.

Not sure if all that babble helps you much.

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Thanks for the reply Andy.

Your overall scale length at 626mm seems a long way short if the Stew Mac guide is anything to go by as you would usually double the nut to crown of 12th fret which should equal 2 x 324.000mm = 648.000mm therefore 651 is only 3mm longer? Most of time I have found that if open compared to fretted 12th is sharp means you need to lengthen the string to take out the sharpness and shortening if things are flat?

Biggest issue I am having is things sounding really off on root chords and anywhere up to 5th position where it starts to almost sound normal. Not pressing down too hard as I know that sharpens things up if a nut is too high as with the ones I have tried I reckon they are a bit lower than where they should be therefore probably not contributing to the problem.

Will try Ponch's suggestion about compromising the shared saddle intonations rather than trying to get all strings perfect. May also shorten up the string length to see if that helps.

Never experienced anything like this before on many previous guitar setups however this is my first attempt on a Tele and clearly attempting to navigate through unchartered waters. Funny how most 6 saddle replacement bridges are string through the body and had to really search hard to find one that would still allow rear load or both.

Check your first fret measurement and next few frets. It seems like your fret to fret distances are close'ish (although 16-19 seem mixed up a bit), so perhaps the fret spacings are generally ok but the nut to 1st is slightly off? With a 12th fret at 323/324 you would usually be closer to 648mm for the high E rather than 651.

I'm no expert on the physics of stringed instruments but I would expect if the fret positions go out of wack from fret 10 onwards (in this case increasing the scale length by a mm) this would in turn affect the overall tuning and fretted notes as they would intersect the string at the wrong position

Interesting read for those into physics..

http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar

Shots of frets 1 - 5 compared to the following spacings as per the Stew Mac guide
Nut to 1st = 36.369mm
Nut to 2nd = 70.698mm
Nut to 3rd = 103.099mm
Nut to 4th = 133.682mm
Nut to 5th = 162.549mm
Attachment 12094Attachment 12095Attachment 12096Attachment 12097Attachment 12098

Shots of frets 6 - 10 has the following spacings as per the Stew Mac guide
Nut to 6th = 189.795mm
Nut to 7th = 215.512mm
Nut to 8th = 239.786mm
Nut to 9th = 262.697mm
Nut to 10th = 284.322mm
Nut to 11th = 304.734mm
Attachment 12099Attachment 12100Attachment 12101Attachment 12102Attachment 12103

Thanks Ponch, just a bit of light reading I will take to work tomorrow to read in a spare moment when not so tired as it will not make much sense at this time of the day.

Hi Scott, You are right in that the neck measured 323mm from nut to 12th fret crown therefore it should be closer to 646mm at high E saddle not 651mm and will revisit things earlier tomorrow evening after work.

Took some close up shots with a steel ruler along the side of the neck to show the measurements and posted them above for you to have a look at and add your comments.

Beginning to wonder whether nut was cut in about 1mm too far north, ie. towards the headstock and if that might be the main reason things sound out of whack?

The fret spacings and nut position look close enough, so the bridge/saddle position is probably the cause. Can you get the high E saddle wound in as far as 646mm, and/or will it not intonate around there?

Sorry I missed this one.
Yep, deffo the bridge. Common problem with the three saddle Tele bridge system.
Another issue is the rear pup cavities are often 5-6mm too far back which makes intonation a challenge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dingobass

Sorry I missed this one.
Yep, deffo the bridge. Common problem with the three saddle Tele bridge system.
Another issue is the rear pup cavities are often 5-6mm too far back which makes intonation a challenge.

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Ran the numbers through the Stewmac Fret calculator for a 21 fret initially using 648mm as that is closest to 25.5" and that is where I thought neck measurements were out by 1mm around 12th fret so went back and plugged in 646mm and the calculated measurements now line up more closely to those on this Telecaster neck. The confusing part is at the bottom of the calculator you have this....


Bridge placement for 646.000mm scale length
Distance indicated is from the fretboard edge of the nut to center of forward-most mounting screw or pivot post.

Telecaster® style bridges

652.333mm (± 0.5mm) ........and this final number is pretty damn close to what I have on the high E?

Re-checked the intonation across all 6 strings and it is a compromise at best to get somewhere near the fretted 12th note. Arrggghhhh, so frustrating and as the 6 saddle replacement arrived in today's mail proceeded to install it to see if that would do the trick.

Attachment 12131Attachment 12132Attachment 12133Attachment 12134
Slightly shorter base plate length but thankfully long enough to hide screw holes from previous one.

Started intonating high E at exactly 646mm and had to screw plenty south to remove the sharpness on fretted 12th note and ended up at about 649mm with all others staggered backwards a little bit further from there.

May have solved one problem but now have a couple more to deal with as the bridge PUP no longer makes noise and suspect it may be shorting on the copper shielding or a wire came loose. Also had to wind the saddles up really high to take out fret buzzing and now some of the strings are buzzing against the protruding ends of the saddle intonation screws. Neck is dead flat and maybe I need to shim the front edge a bit, add some front bow, or take a bit of meat out of the neck pocket to drop the altitude down closer to sea level?

This one may just end up on the wall. The missus has given the all clear as she reckons it is the prettiest of the bunch built. Damn shame as the PUP's and 4 way switch sounded so good before I became obsessed with the rotten intonation sounding out of tune.

Got Thursday as RDO and will attack it again then. Happy for any more comments, suggestions, inspiration or feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy40

Hi Waz. Just saw this post. Although I am not the droid you are looking for.

It looks like the total scale length (around the 651mm mark is quite long?

My TLA-1R had a total scale length of 626mm after putting in the wilkinson bridge and putting in the longer intonation screws (PGB standard) and winding them all the way forward. I have a lot of latitude to tune the intonation with the longer screws. when i did the mock build, I thought it would be harder to intonate with the vintage 3 saddles but I had no problems.

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Hey Andy, ran 626mm through the Stewmac Fret Calculator and that is just about spot on for 24.75" being standard Gibson scale length, not Fender Strat or Telecaster at 25.5" and wondered if those measurements are correct on your TLA-1R?

The Stewmac bridge placement measurement only works properly with bridges that Stewmac sell, in my experience....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

Hey Andy, ran 626mm through the Stewmac Fret Calculator and that is just about spot on for 24.75" being standard Gibson scale length, not Fender Strat or Telecaster at 25.5" and wondered if those measurements are correct on your TLA-1R?

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Hey Waz,

Soz its been a while since I looked into the measurements of my tele. I did a complete build before i started the finish and it played great. I think i meant 646mm but I got an extra 2 cm of adjustment using the longer PBG saddle screws. They're all about as long as your new high e from Real tone!. I had a quick look on my build diary but didn't spend too much time properly looking. Sorry I can't check because I pulled it apart again to lay down some more of that DT finish coat ;)

Its all coming flooding back now, Like DB said the original bridge position was about 5mm too long, so I too had to move it slightly toward the neck...but not too much...as the wilkinson ashtray is also shorter... but just enough to cover the pre drilled PBG holes. I also used the longer PBG saddle screws to help get the right scale length. Phew! I whittled some oak dowel to cover the pre-drilled holes as well. not sure if thats an option for you at this stage?:eek:

Thanks DB & Andy. I will probably revert back to the original 3 saddle and from the 6 saddle version I have some good reference points for where each string was intonated on it's own to help with the compromise on shared post positions.

State of Origin about to start so I had better crack a beer and start chanting QUEENSLANDER!!!!!

QUUUUEEEEENNNSSLLLAAAAANNDDEERRRR!!!

Blues don't stand a chance!!!