Tuning Machines.

Just thought I'd start a thread about Tuning Machines, I think the quality of these things are very important to the tune-ability of your guitar.


I've been having a real rough time with trying to buy good quality tuning machines for my guitars, tried some well known brands of Tuning Machines and have been a bit disappointed in the quality, here's my experiences with the brands I've tried (note:I was using an accurate Dean Markley Tuner Pedal with a good fresh 9V battery to tune the guitars) .


Fender OEM:


These came stock on my Fender Mexican Standard Stratocaster, basically I had a real hard time trying to tune the guitar and keep it in tune from the day I first bough it, I took the strings off the guitar and examined the tuners, every one of them had backlash (note, this was a brand new guitar), so, I thought a set of replacements would fix the problem, they didn't, turned out the replacements had backlash too.

Fender Locking Tuners:

Although they initially didn't exhibit much backlash, it was only when I'd installed them on my Mexican Strat that I found that a few of them had loose buttons making accurate tuning difficult.

Gotohs:


Pretty much every set of new Gotoh Tuners I've ever bought had enough individual tuners with backlash that rendered the whole set of 6 useless.


Schaller Locking Tuners:

Initially they seemed okay, but soon after I installed them on my PRS SE Custom 24 I noticed that it was difficult to accurately tune each string to pitch, turned out that some of the tuners had loose-fitting buttons which caused backlash.


Grover Rotomatic Lockers:


One of my pet peeves with these tuners is that the high E-String had a tendency to break whenever I tried tuning the guitar up to pitch, I had these installed on my PRS SE Custom 24 which had 42-09 gauge strings on it, I ended up threading the high E-String twice through the hole in order to prevent it from breaking, once I had the guitar tuned to pitch I noticed that it was hard to tune accurately, to cut a long story short it turned out that there were some loose fitting buttons.


So, is it just me or is the quality control of these companies a bit lacking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrNomis_44

Just thought I'd start a thread about Tuning Machines, I think the quality of these things are very important to the tune-ability of your guitar.


I've been having a real rough time with trying to buy good quality tuning machines for my guitars, tried some well known brands of Tuning Machines and have been a bit disappointed in the quality, here's my experiences with the brands I've tried (note:I was using an accurate Dean Markley Tuner Pedal with a good fresh 9V battery to tune the guitars) .


Fender OEM:


These came stock on my Fender Mexican Standard Stratocaster, basically I had a real hard time trying to tune the guitar and keep it in tune from the day I first bough it, I took the strings off the guitar and examined the tuners, every one of them had backlash (note, this was a brand new guitar), so, I thought a set of replacements would fix the problem, they didn't, turned out the replacements had backlash too.

Fender Locking Tuners:

Although they initially didn't exhibit much backlash, it was only when I'd installed them on my Mexican Strat that I found that a few of them had loose buttons making accurate tuning difficult.

Gotohs:


Pretty much every set of new Gotoh Tuners I've ever bought had enough individual tuners with backlash that rendered the whole set of 6 useless.


Schaller Locking Tuners:

Initially they seemed okay, but soon after I installed them on my PRS SE Custom 24 I noticed that it was difficult to accurately tune each string to pitch, turned out that some of the tuners had loose-fitting buttons which caused backlash.


Grover Rotomatic Lockers:


One of my pet peeves with these tuners is that the high E-String had a tendency to break whenever I tried tuning the guitar up to pitch, I had these installed on my PRS SE Custom 24 which had 42-09 gauge strings on it, I ended up threading the high E-String twice through the hole in order to prevent it from breaking, once I had the guitar tuned to pitch I noticed that it was hard to tune accurately, to cut a long story short it turned out that there were some loose fitting buttons.


So, is it just me or is the quality control of these companies a bit lacking?

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Wow.....just wow:P

interesting post there Dr Nomis, so is there a tuner you've tried that does keep in tune and have little backlash ?

Please excuse my ignorance, but what the hell is backlash?

Here's a copy/pasta from the Dean Markley site that is worth a read.
STAYING IN TUNE

The first thing that most people assume when their guitar won't stay in tune is that the tuners are slipping, or somehow not doing their job. A logical enough assumption, but 99.9% of the time it is wrong. Given that all the intonation factors we have discussed are accounted for, making the instrument capable of getting in tune in the first place, the most common reason guitars go out of tune is our old friend...strings. "But I put new strings on today," you cry. Yes but did you stretch them? "Of course," you protest. Let's see that guitar. Well look at this. One yank on the low E and the pitch drops a step and a half. If your average guitar repairman had a nickel for every time that scenario took place, he would be working from a mansion in Malibu, not the back of the local axe shack.

When you put on new strings the windings around the tuners must be tightened by pulling the string until it no longer goes flat when pulled. This requires repeated moderate pulling, retuning, pulling, retuning and so on until done. Pull the string away from the fingerboard, not across it to avoid breaking the nut. If you don't do this, then every time you play a song or bend a string you will be tightening those windings, causing the string to go flat. By the time they settle in, it will be long past time to change your strings, and the whole process will start over.

If you find when stretching the string that it keeps going flat and eventually pulls out of the tuner, you may be stringing the guitar improperly. Pull the string through the tuner (or cut off the end and insert it, as with Kluson-style Fender tuners), leaving just enough slack for two to four windings - too many windings makes stretching difficult.

If the tuner is the type where the string pulls through, take each unwound string and bring it back and under itself in such a way that the windings will go over the end, thus locking it (POSSIBLE ILLUSTRATION). If it is the Kluson-style, wind the string part way down, then back up then all the way down to achieve a similar effect. Proper stringing and stretching of the strings will prevent going out of tune 90% of the time. As the folks at Nike say, "Just do it."

Moar...

Why won’t your guitar stay in tune?


1. The “nut”

The guitar nut sits at the very top of the fretboard. It’s really important to get the nut seating the strings correctly as they pass over it. If it’s cut too narrow it pinches the string as you tune and you get that sense of nothing happening until you hear a ‘ping’ Then all of a sudden the pitch of the string jumps upward. Also if it’s not cut flat the string essentially passes over a knife edge and is much more liable to prematurely break. This can all be cured with a gentle filing down but unless you really know what you’re doing take it to a professional repairer! One thing you could try first is lubricating the nut by shaving some graphite from a pencil into each string slot to allow each string to pass over it more freely.

2. The tuning pegs

Check if there is play in your tuning pegs. You may be able to solve this by tightening the tiny screw in the peg itself, if that doesn’t help then again take it to a pro repairer.

3. Intonation

Another key tuning area is intonation, especially if you play chords that combine fretted and open notes higher up the neck. If a guitar isn’t intonated properly open strings don’t sound quite in tune with their octave notes up on the twelfth fret, and it’s those slightly out of tune notes that really grate. Much of this can be solved by tweaking the metal truss rod down the centre of the guitar neck but again if you don’t know what you’re doing take it to a professional luthier and get it set up properly. Just think of it like a routine car service that just needs to be done every so often. It may cost a few bucks but a really ‘in tune’ guitar is worth the expense.

4. The strings

And sometimes a guitar not staying in tune is purely down to old strings so do change them regularly. When you do, take a minute or two to stretch them in as they’ll stay at pitch much more quickly. If you’re not familiar with how to do this there are plenty of resources on YouTube to show you how and it’ll make a dramatic difference. Also when you change strings make sure you leave enough space for a number of windings around each string tree. Generally unwound top strings need more winds than the wound lower ones.

5. The capo

Another recurring tuning issue comes along with using a capo, especially on guitars with jumbo frets. Most guitarists realise that a badly placed capo will pull strings out of tune, but actually putting a capo on a guitar with bigger frets will cause the strings to pull down further onto the neck and so pull them sharp. Shubb type capos have adjustable tension which will help but alternatively try placing the capo directly on top of the fret rather than traditionally behind it and this should help.

6. The strap

One possible cause of tuning issues is that the strap is tied to the headstock. This will pull the strings sharp. If this is the case get a strap button screwed onto the heel of the guitar. They dont cost much at all if you fit it yourself or a shop will charge to fit it for you.

7. The climate

Humidity and temperature can have a huge effect on tuning too. In January I was in Edmonton, Alberta and the temperature changes due to taking instruments from the car into the outdoors and then into a warm building, coupled with the dry climate there caused enormous tuning problems. Similarly a church building warms up hugely when people come and start to sing. So again so the rule is to tune often and often.

8. You!

Sometimes bad tuning is caused simply by pressing a string too hard and causing it to go sharp, especially if you are playing electric or with light guage strings. I find Gibson electrics can be prone to this particularly at the G string. Alongside just pressing more gently you could try going up a string gauge or even replacing an unwound G with a wound one.

• High or low frets: Too much and too little fret height can mess with your ability to play in tune. Pressing down on a fret that’s too high produces a sharp note unless you’re aware of the height of the frets and develop a light touch, like guitarists who perform on instruments with scalloped fretboards. Low frets, on the other hand, tend to encourage sloppy fretting technique in beginners. It is easy to slide over or around the fret instead of pinning the string right up against it.

• Pickup proximity: Here’s a mind-blowing problem. Pickups are, of course, magnetic. And if they’re ultra-hot and too close to the strings, they will exert a small amount of downward magnetic pull. That can make it tough to tune a guitar accurately and interfere with intonation. On the other hand, lowering the pickups will darken a guitar’s tone. Spend some time to find the right balance or pickup height and tone.

I've had schaller lockers in my SG for YEARS and they've never failed. I can leave it for months and it'll always stay in tune regardless. Amazing tuners imo

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Originally Posted by Nickosaurus

I've had schaller lockers in my SG for YEARS and they've never failed. I can leave it for months and it'll always stay in tune regardless. Amazing tuners imo

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I just picked up the Bladecatcher this morning after literally sitting for 3 weeks, still beautifully in tune. Those Grover locking tuners are rock solid.

Have never had a problem with any tuners other than bumping em into stuff after too many beers.

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Originally Posted by pablopepper

Please excuse my ignorance, but what the hell is backlash?

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Backlash is where you turn the knob on the tuning machines and nothing happens till you get to a certain point, then the tuner capstan starts rotating and the pitch of the string changes, when you try to tune the string up to pitch you usually end up going a bit sharp so you turn the knob of the tuning machine the other way, again nothing happens till you get to a certain point and the tuner capstan starts rotating the other way.

Backlash makes it hard to tune each string to pitch.


@ bargeloobs, I tried all those things you listed, including stretching the strings to the point where I thought they would break, didn't make any difference, I found that the tuning problems were definitely caused by the tuning machines, I even tried lubricating each of the nut slots too, made no difference, the only thing that did make a difference was completely replacing all the original tuners with brand new ones, when I did that the tuning problems went away and the tuning was a lot more stable.



The original tuners on my Gibson USA Les Paul Studio had varying degrees of backlash, the tuner for the A-String was the worst with about a quarter-turn of backlash, this made the Les Paul hard to tune accurately, I tried replacing the original tuners with some Grover Rotomatics, but found that the knobs on the new tuners a bit loose fitting, I received a couple of sets of brand new Grover Deluxe Kluson tuners in the mail this morning (I had ordered them from Allparts.com the previous fortnight), I installed the new tuners on my Les Paul and found that tuning was much improved.


I found that stretching the strings actually made the tuning problems worse rather than better, and yes I was pulling the strings away from the fretboard rather than sideways.


I'm using 46-10 gauge strings on my Les Paul with an un-wound G-String.

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Originally Posted by wokkaboy

interesting post there Dr Nomis, so is there a tuner you've tried that does keep in tune and have little backlash ?

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I'd say the best tuners I've tried with regards to Backlash were the set of 6 Steinberger Gearless Tuners I installed on a Cimar Superstrat a friend gave me.

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Originally Posted by DrNomis_44

I'd say the best tuners I've tried with regards to Backlash were the set of 6 Steinberger Gearless Tuners I installed on a Cimar Superstrat a friend gave me.

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Now they were "the best" for backlash, or they were "the best" in the absence of....backlash?

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Originally Posted by bargeloobs

Now they were "the best" for backlash, or they were "the best" in the absence of....backlash?

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Well, because they are Gearless Tuners, they don't suffer from Backlash like conventional Geared Tuners do, Steinberger Gearless Tuners "Pull" the strings up to pitch rather than wind them, and it's a straight pull, Geared Tuners suffer from Backlash because sometimes the mesh between the teeth of the gears and the worm-drive isn't as tight as it should be, this can be caused by manufacturing defects, tolerances, or even just wear that happens during the tuner's useful lifespan before it's replaced, I've come across quite a few conventional Geared tuners that exhibited Backlash when brand new straight out of the packaging, some of the brand new conventional Geared Tuners I've bought also exhibited some capstan-shaft wobble, this is where you can actually move the capstan shaft side to side after installing the tuner, I've found that capstan-shaft wobble can also contribute to tuning problems as well.


If you go to the official Sperzel website they talk about all the manufacturing defects that plague other tuners, which contribute to tuning problems, Bob Sperzel talks about the design features of his tuners that are designed to maximize tuning stability, I haven't tried Sperzel Tuners myself but I wouldn't mind giving them a go one day.

Sperzel tuners are pretty good but when it comes to Bass tuners I have found Gotoh to be extremely good quality for the price... For Guitars Gotoh lockers are brilliant, not had a single one come back to me with unstable tuning issues.

Remember, brand names sell gear, but that does not necessarily make them the best.. People rave about hip sh#t gear but I have found it to be very poorly made from mystery metal, very expensive mystery metal and as for customer service? Non existant..

I forked out over 500 US for a headless system only to discover it was made very cheaply.
On the very first tune up the G tuner stripped.. Five weeks later I got a replacement along with a rather rude note handwritten in RED ink... Needless to say I not only spat the dummy out I also chucked all my toys out of the cot...

Wish I still had a copy of the email I sent in response, not only did I tell them to stick their bad products and service in a rather rude place, I also told them to go to hell and gave them detailed instructions on how to get there... Funny thing, I never did get a reply.....

I just wish Steinberger would come up with straight pull tuners for Bass..............

nice one DB, I wish I saw your email to hipshot, $500 US for 4 tuners, woah you would expect high quality for those bucks !

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Originally Posted by dingobass

Sperzel tuners are pretty good but when it comes to Bass tuners I have found Gotoh to be extremely good quality for the price... For Guitars Gotoh lockers are brilliant, not had a single one come back to me with unstable tuning issues.

Remember, brand names sell gear, but that does not necessarily make them the best.. People rave about hip sh#t gear but I have found it to be very poorly made from mystery metal, very expensive mystery metal and as for customer service? Non existant..

I forked out over 500 US for a headless system only to discover it was made very cheaply.
On the very first tune up the G tuner stripped.. Five weeks later I got a replacement along with a rather rude note handwritten in RED ink... Needless to say I not only spat the dummy out I also chucked all my toys out of the cot...

Wish I still had a copy of the email I sent in response, not only did I tell them to stick their bad products and service in a rather rude place, I also told them to go to hell and gave them detailed instructions on how to get there... Funny thing, I never did get a reply.....

I just wish Steinberger would come up with straight pull tuners for Bass..............

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Geez, that sounds a bit like the experience I had with the Headless Guitar kit I got from that Irish company I ordered the kit online from, I wasn't too impressed with the quality of the bridge hardware (it was branded Overlord Of Music), I seem to remember one of the tuners on the bridge feeling like the threads had stripped a bit, since a genuine Steinberger R-Trem bridge was going to cost me $250.00 (about the same price as the kit), I decided to abandon finishing the kit, I don't think I got my money's worth when I bought the kit and I think $50.00 would have been a more realistic price for it.

What I think these cheap versions of Steinberger hardware do is tarnish the reputation of Steinberger products.

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Originally Posted by DrNomis_44

(it was branded Overlord Of Music)

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haha Dr Nomis, that bridge labelled Overlord of Music is where we got the idea of the 2000+ post tag !

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Originally Posted by wokkaboy

haha Dr Nomis, that bridge labelled Overlord of Music is where we got the idea of the 2000+ post tag !

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Lol....I was wondering where it came from, I've still got a long way to go till I get to 2000 posts, I see that I've only made 83 posts (including this one)so far.

yeah Dr Nomis, either Gavmeister or DB posted a pic of the headless bridge from a Steinberger and couldn't believe it said Overlord of music stamped ontop.
You will get your post numbers up, you just got to chip away. My next target is 5000 posts and hoping for a new tag then haha

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Originally Posted by wokkaboy

yeah Dr Nomis, either Gavmeister or DB posted a pic of the headless bridge from a Steinberger and couldn't believe it said Overlord of music stamped ontop.
You will get your post numbers up, you just got to chip away. My next target is 5000 posts and hoping for a new tag then haha

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You guys will probably get sick of me by the time I get my post numbers up to 2000...lol... j/k


I'm really enjoying being a member of this forum, it has a totally different vibe to the other forum that I'm a member of, it's called Freestompboxes.org, basically it's all to do with DIY building of effects pedals for guitars.

I love locking tuners cause I do a lot of bending but being on disability I can't afford Sperzel's. In fact that's how I discovered Guitar Fetish.
I've yet to have any real problems with any of the tuner sets I've bought from them.
Backlash is such a pain in the butt. Especially on stage when you really don't wanna spend more than about 10 seconds tuning your guitar.

Breaking the high E. I don't know how many times that has happened. I dd find that for me using locking tuners that lock from behind tend to break them less than the ones you use a coin to lock from the top. I always over tightened the top locking ones and since my high E is a .009 it's very easy to break.

Providing there were no other issues to cause tuning lose once I switched to locking I could go all night without having to tune.

G'day Rob,

I don't use locking tuners but being of a vintage not far removed from yourself and just coming back to playing I have been using 9s for the last few months on my 3 main 6 stringers because my fingers were struggling with bending but have just gone back up to 10s which I thought I'd never do.

Getting a much fuller sound and a bit more snap and clarity, new strings obviously help but the set I took off were only about 2 months old but were played for around an hour most days.

They also seem to be pretty stable from a tuning perspective.

I use 42-09 gauge strings on my other guitars, and 46-10 gauge strings on my LP Studio, I found that I can make the transition from 42-09 gauge to 46-10 gauge fairly easily cause the 24 3/4 inch scale length of my LP Studio means that the string tension is about the same so it's relatively easy to adapt.


Is it just my imagination or does the 14:1 gear ratio of the Grover Kluson Deluxe tuners, on my LP Studio, seem suit the 46-10 gauge strings better?, I don't know.

I've noticed that tuners with an 18:1 Gear Ratio seem to suit 42-09 gauge strings and tuners with a 14:1 Gear ratio seem to suit 46-10 gauge strings, you wouldn't think that the gear ratio of a tuner would suit particular string gauges but that's something I've observed.


I know that the higher the gear ratio of the tuner the finer/more accurate the tuning is, so therefore tuners like the Steinberger Gearless Tuners with the supposedly 40:1 ratio should be very accurate in terms of tuning.

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Originally Posted by dave.king1

G'day Rob,

I don't use locking tuners but being of a vintage not far removed from yourself and just coming back to playing I have been using 9s for the last few months on my 3 main 6 stringers because my fingers were struggling with bending but have just gone back up to 10s which I thought I'd never do.

Getting a much fuller sound and a bit more snap and clarity, new strings obviously help but the set I took off were only about 2 months old but were played for around an hour most days.

They also seem to be pretty stable from a tuning perspective.

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Hiya dave!!
I was thinking of going to 10's when I still was playing on stage cause I tended to be heavy handed when I play and was breaking high "E" strings too often. Now that I am retired from live performing I'm not as heavy handed. Not breaking strings now.
Also if I didn't bend so much I probably wouldn't need lockers. :D
Not sure why but my Tele seems to stay in tune even with my bending.
It was difficult for me to find the right strings. As the only guitarist in my bands I needed something good for the lead work but also the rhythm. For some reason I gravitated towards 42-09.
I do know I won't use any brand other than D'Addario.

Sidenote: One really nice about not playing live. I don't have to change my strings as often. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrNomis_44

I use 42-09 gauge strings on my other guitars, and 46-10 gauge strings on my LP Studio, I found that I can make the transition from 42-09 gauge to 46-10 gauge fairly easily cause the 24 3/4 inch scale length of my LP Studio means that the string tension is about the same so it's relatively easy to adapt.

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I know for me the big problem with trying to go back and forth is that I have very short stubby fingers and I could feel a major difference between the sizes.
I has had an accident years ago that damaged my left hand causing some loss of feeling in the finger so I have to press harder. That hurts after awhile with the bigger sizes. ;)

I've been looking at those Steinberger Gearless Tuners but I just can't get passed the naked look on the headstocks using them. But I may wind up switching to them cause tuning for me is much more important on recordings. If you're a bit out of tune on stage the only people who will notice is other guitarists. Recorded though, everyone will notice it. And I refuse to use autotune for anything at all.

Go the 'Bergers, you wont be disappointed :-)

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Originally Posted by dingobass

Go the 'Bergers, you wont be disappointed :-)

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Pretty sure I'll wind up with them. The look is starting to grow on me. Since my first PB build will be that hollow Tele which will look a bit odd in itself the Bergers will probably look great on it. :)

Yeah, definitely give those Steinberger Gearless Tuners a go, some people think that they will add a bit of weight to a guitar's headstock, but from my experiences with them the individual tuners seem to weigh about the same, if not a bit less, than standard tuners, they do take a bit of getting used to from both a practical and aesthetic point of view, note that because the strings attach to the Gearless Tuners a little differently to standard tuners, the string tends to go off at a slight angle rather than going straight over the nut, this might cause some string-friction issues on Stratocaster style guitars which normally have the strings going straight over the nut.