Clear Finish

Hi All, sorry if this has been asked before, but couldn't find the right thread.

I've been doing my guitars with RCA acrylic spray cans and just doing a TL1 and wondering about the finish of the headstock. I'm about to shape it and i've been thinking that i may keep the headstock clear instead of black to match to body.

Can you spray acrylic clear coat straight onto the headstock (its maple) without a filler or sealer / primer?

I've used TruOil in the past and will probably use for the neck itself but for the headstock face i prefer the acrylic finish.

Thoughts?

The short answer is yes. You can apply clear acrylic lacquer directly onto maple.
Maple requires no grain filling as it's a very closed pore timber.

I would recommend not sanding beyond P240 or P320 since the acrylic lacquer will be mechanically bonding to the timber (like a primer would do) not chemically bonding.

The only thing I would add for consideration is the use of Tru Oil and clear acrylic lacquer, is that the Tru Oil will have definite amber tint to it which will slightly darken with age, clear acrylic lacquer will tend to keep its clear appearance for a very long time. So you will end up with a bit of a 2-tone look between the face of the headstock and the back (or where ever you apply the Tru Oil).

You also have to be careful of compatibility between Tru Oil and clear acrylic lacquer. Tru Oil is oil based, and lacquer is solvent based.
If the lacquer goes over the Tru Oil, it will melt it due to the "hotter" solvent. There would issues if any Tru Oil was applied over any lacquer as well because the solvents gassing off under the Tru Oil would cause it to lift.

You mighty get away with it by masking things off really well, but there's always a risk if combining two finish types. Honestly, I would suggest going entirely with either one or the other.

Thanks McCreed, very useful information! I figured i could but wanted to check.

Good point around the P240 grit as well, something i hadn't given thought too.

One of the reasons for using the lacquer was to get the non-amber tint over time. I did another kit completely in TruOil and it came up really nice, but the more i look at it the more i wish it didn't have the slight tint (especially knowing its going to get even more so over time).

I agree with sticking to one of the other, the only reason i've considered the TruOil on the back of the neck is that i really like the feel from a playability perspective. I like that it is really slippery! The back of my LP is tacky after years of playing :-(

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I did another kit completely in TruOil and it came up really nice, but the more i look at it the more i wish it didn't have the slight tint (especially knowing its going to get even more so over time).

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I will say that the change in colour over time is very slight, but it does occur.

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I agree with sticking to one of the other, the only reason i've considered the TruOil on the back of the neck is that i really like the feel from a playability perspective. I like that it is really slippery! The back of my LP is tacky after years of playing :-(

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I would suggest trying satin polyurethane. That has become my go-to finish for necks for the past 2 years and I don't see going back to anything else. I just love the feel. AAMOF, I have stripped a coiuple of necks I previously sprayed with ac laq and refinished them with satin poly!
Also with poly, you can do the headstock with a gloss and the back with satin if you want, and there's no compatibility issues (providing they are both the same base, oil base/oil base or water base/water base).

I have done satin with gloss as well as all satin. And you can even polish satin to a gloss, which gives a unique gloss look because of the higher solid content.

Just throwing out options...

Just need to mention that most acrylic sprays are water-based these days, rather than using an organic solvent. It’s why acrylic is far more eco-friendly than say nitro.

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Originally Posted by McCreed

I will say that the change in colour over time is very slight, but it does occur.



I would suggest trying satin polyurethane. That has become my go-to finish for necks for the past 2 years and I don't see going back to anything else. I just love the feel. AAMOF, I have stripped a coiuple of necks I previously sprayed with ac laq and refinished them with satin poly!
Also with poly, you can do the headstock with a gloss and the back with satin if you want, and there's no compatibility issues (providing they are both the same base, oil base/oil base or water base/water base).

I have done satin with gloss as well as all satin. And you can even polish satin to a gloss, which gives a unique gloss look because of the higher solid content.

Just throwing out options...

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Some great ideas, thank for that! I'll look further into but i think i have a good idea of direction now and what's doable so all good.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Just need to mention that most acrylic sprays are water-based these days, rather than using an organic solvent. It’s why acrylic is far more eco-friendly than say nitro.

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I haven't used rattle can acrylic clear in a few years so don't really have a good handle on what's out there now. It's good to hear they're moving in an eco-friendly direction though. However, a quick search for it in Australia seems we're well behind the curve*.

*edit: I am referring to rattle can clear. Water based lacquers are available for spraying, but seems to be more so in bulk 4-20L than 250-500ml like I use in solvent based stuff.

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Originally Posted by McCreed

I haven't used rattle can acrylic clear in a few years so don't really have a good handle on what's out there now. It's good to hear they're moving in an eco-friendly direction though. However, a quick search for it in Australia seems we're well behind the curve*.

*edit: I am referring to rattle can clear. Water based lacquers are available for spraying, but seems to be more so in bulk 4-20L than 250-500ml like I use in solvent based stuff.

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Water based poly urethane is more common. Just wish someone would come out with an automotive water based clear.

I’m probably confusing the solid colours with the clears then. Sorry!

First, apologies to a_novice for the hijack...

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Originally Posted by Rabbit

Water based poly urethane is more common. Just wish someone would come out with an automotive water based clear.

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Rabbit, I've seen water based clear "lacquer" for guitars and woodworking. How would that differ from an automotive lacquer?
I'm just thinking vintage guitars were painted with auto lacquers, so wouldn't it work other way around?
FTR, I've never done any car painting and my only experience with lacquers has been on guitars.

Also, I've just been reading a bit about waterbourne automotive paints, and it does seem like the technology just isn't quite there yet. Even PPG, whom I think kind of came up with it first (???) points out its shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by McCreed

First, apologies to a_novice for the hijack...



Rabbit, I've seen water based clear "lacquer" for guitars and woodworking. How would that differ from an automotive lacquer?
I'm just thinking vintage guitars were painted with auto lacquers, so wouldn't it work other way around?
FTR, I've never done any car painting and my only experience with lacquers has been on guitars.

Also, I've just been reading a bit about waterbourne automotive paints, and it does seem like the technology just isn't quite there yet. Even PPG, whom I think kind of came up with it first (???) points out its shortcomings.

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With regards to clears, it comes down to durability. Auto grade clears are the highest in durability, then marine finishes a step below that. For a guitar , that level of durability isn't realy needed, but it's nice to have. As for base coats, in the auto industry, both factory and refinishing industries are increasingly making use of waterbourne technology.... your information may be a bit behind the times. The technology has improved dramatically, but it requires re-training to apply them properly.

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The technology has improved dramatically, but it requires re-training to apply them properly.

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Yes, that was actually some of the info that PPG posted. As well as some equipment changes, but I wasn't aware that it was becoming more widely used in the industry. Thanks for info on differences in clears. I don't know why, but I assumed marine grade would be harder wearing than auto. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by McCreed

I wasn't aware that it was becoming more widely used in the industry. Thanks for info on differences in clears. I don't know why, but I assumed marine grade would be harder wearing than auto. Interesting.

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Yeh, besides PPG, others such as Sandox and Spies Hecker have waterbones. Much more common in smash repair places. There is more of a demand to go green, from the car re-finishing stand point, and from the paint manufactures, the US is a big market, and much like car emissions, that's driven by the laws of the state of California. The custom paint scene is also has a large waterborne cadre. The spray gun manufactures are bringing out guns specifically for the waterborne base coats, and at the same time paint manufactures are modifying their paints to work more like the solvent based products. The stuff I use now originally relied on only two colours or primer and the base coats required higher pressure and a conventional gun (no HVLP) to highly atomise the paint and lay down several light coats. Now they have many colours of primer and the base sprays in fewer coats beacuse you can lay down wet coats like the solvent base. So what took 5 coats now takes two or 3. With correct air movement, they dry faster than solvent based so you can get your coats done quicker... dry time was one of the complaints people used to have with waterbornes. The who thing gets let down by the lack of a waterborne automotive clear. They do have a UV stabilised architectural grade clear which would be suitable for guitars. It also makes a good primer/grain filler on timber.

Good stuff there. Thanks!

OK... now back to you regularly scheduled program...

:) All good!

Just trying to find the right product...the SCA Clear Coat spray can that i've used on my 2 builds so far have worked fine and i like to nice build up i get. It works really well with burying decals as well but i had much more trouble doing the same with TruOil (as i figured i would) but like the feel of TruOil on the neck.

So looking for something that i can achieve both outcomes with (building up on headstock for the decal, fast action on the neck playability and keeping original wood colouring - no amber over time).

The SCA clear should be a DIY grade automotive acrylic, so a good pick for durability. If you want fast action on the neck, I'd suggest once it's cured using either 0000 steel wool or 800 grit working down to 2000 grit wet/dry paper on the neck. I found that seemed to work for me on my DX-4. Nice shiny polished body and the neck is like butter.

so sand the neck using water just like the body? or sand without the water to get the similar effect of using 0000 steel wool?

For sanding the back of necks for a smooth satin feel I’ve always done it without water. The finer Scotchbright pads are another alternative to sandpaper and both are much superior to steel wool to avoid those fine steel splinters sticking in the finish.

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Originally Posted by a_novice

so sand the neck using water just like the body? or sand without the water to get the similar effect of using 0000 steel wool?

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Dry sand, although you could wet sand... I don't like wet sanding because I don't feel confident that everything is *completely* sealed and don't want to risk getting wet wood. I have used scotchbrite pad as Simon suggested, but I find they are similar to 400 grit..at least the grey ones. Good for initial smoothing, but I like to work my way through the grits up to 2000 and leave it there with no polishing. I'd suggest just work your way to what feels comfortable to you ... On a cleared neck with no paint underneath the scratch marks from the paper are less noticeable so you can get a nice satin feel with lower grits. I found on the black axe bass neck I need to go finer to make it look more even but still feel right... anything beyond 2000 grit and the clear I'm using starts to get shiny again.

I have been using mainly Poly on all my guitars due to drying times and the temps you can apply them. I use water based due to lack of odour but if you put it on bare wood then it can raise the grain so I put on a solvent wipe on poly first, maybe 2 coats but most time I get by with a single coat, and then finish off with water based over the top.

You can wet sand with other substances than just water. I have used Shellite near holes or cut outs but you have to be a bit mindful of your surroundings. Make sure there is no naked flames or other ignition points and do it outside as the fumes can get a little bit overwhelming and wear the appropriate mask with the correct replacement cartridges.

As for the back of a neck I use the fine white Scotchbrites as they are equivalent to 1500 and leave a satin finish that my hand doesn't stick to after getting sweaty.

Sounds like a plan.

What brands of poly do you use and also where is the best place to get the Scotchbrites...i've only used 0000 steel wool before so keen to try the pads as i've seen a lot of people using them.

I've stayed away from Shellite and trying to use finishes that are as least toxic as i can, like to look after my health as much as possible :p

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I use water based due to lack of odour but if you put it on bare wood then it can raise the grain so I put on a solvent wipe on poly first, maybe 2 coats but most time I get by with a single coat, and then finish off with water based over the top.

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I was unaware you could do that. How long do wait after doing the oil based to apply the water based?

I sand up to 240 grit, I never go finer as it is not necessary for me. I then use some Feast Watson sanding sealer by applying a generous coat and sand with 320. If needed I may give another very thin coat and sand with 400. I then stain to what ever colour I want to use at the time. I then use some Feast Watson gloss wipe on poly and apply a thin coat as it is only used to seal the wood before you apply the water based poly.

I normally wait no less than a week to be safe but I normally have more than 1 guitar going so it may sit for a month or more. I normally hang it outside due to the fumes and once it stops giving off a smell I move it inside to my spare room and give it a little more time. It depends on weather conditions but you have to make sure it is totally dry. Once it is totally dry I use a fine Scotchbrite to remove any dust or raised spots. Don't rub too hard as you could go through, you are only making sure the surface is still smooth. Any area that is not smooth will only get worse as you add more coats.

I then apply Cabot's Gloss Cabothane Water based poly. I normally put on 2 coats and flatten with a Scotchbrite to make sure it is smooth then apply a third coat and repeat the Scotchbrite rub. Normally it is smooth enough to polish with a compound and cotton/wool/sponge rubber buff. I did have some failures at the start but that was due to not waiting for the oil base to harden fully. The water base dry's much quicker than the oil base and I give it roughly 2 - 3 hours between coats. If the weather conditions are right I have only waited about 3 days and it is hard enough to polish but normally I give it about a week just to be safe. No need to rush it and waste time and money

I got my white Scotchbrites from Amazon, as well as my grey and maroon ones. You have to make sure they are the abrasive ones and not the cleaning type. The cleaning ones will sort of polish the finish but they don't really remove high spots as well as the abrasive ones. Of course they are not cheap but I have gotten 3 guitars out of a single pad so far. I just looked on Amazon and they are unavailable. They are hard to come by and the price does vary greatly. It could be due to supply problems but I did see the grey and maroon ones were available. I have used steel wool in the past but found it much more abrasive and not as consistent. The Scotchbrites are easier to control and don't really take much to flatten the surface. I have used them with an random orbital sander as well by removing the paper. To clean just give it a tap and the dust falls off.

The smoother the wood to begin with the easier it is to apply a finish that should take little or no sanding before you polish once the finish has hardened fully. I never sand any finer than 240 as it is more than smooth enough to start the finishing process as the finish will fill any small sanding lines. I used to only use wipe on as I never had any problems with runs but you had to work fairly fast as it can start to tack on warmer days quite quick. Once you get your process down you should only have to apply the finish once and not go over it. When I apply the water base I have used sponge rubber brushes but did have some runs when applying the finish. I mainly use the blue and white lint free Chux as it comes in a roll and is cheap and you can throw it away once you have applied the finish and you don't have to soak them in water like other finishes.

I have now done 7 guitars with this finish and I find it easier and cheaper than spraying and you don't need any form of booth to perform the application.

Thanks for the detail Dikky.
I have a small tin of water base Cabothane, but haven't used it. I may give it go next time I do a neck.
However I would spray it as I prefer doing it that way, and also spray shellac as a sealer and bit of colour.

Yes thanks for sharing,

I'm going to give this a go also.

Ditto! Thanks for sharing the detail, really useful.

Super excited to give it a go.

Sorry to hijack the thread a little, but in addition to the clear coat questions around finishing my Tele headstock, i have just ordered a PBG IC-1 and looking for some advice on how to achieve the following colour...open to staining or painting :-)

I'm planning on putting decal graphics over the body and hence wanting to contrast the black lines of the prints with the grey background.

Any thoughts?

I'm assuming a grey spray paint would be the best option (black for the burst obviously hehe) but looking for a grey that has flecks of dark grey to give the effect seen in the pic if thats even possible.

Yeh paint. is the grain of the timber is interesting, rather tha a a solid grey, you could shoot some black candy which would give you a see through grey, then you could do a solid black burst with spray gun or air brush. Looking at the pic you will also have to scrape the binding after ... that I'm guessing will be a pain.

Not sure on the grain yet, just ordered last night :-)

So you would spray the black candy over a solid grey? or over a grey primer?

The IC-1 doesn't have a binding so phew! It was time consuming (but worth it) when i did that on my PBG Tele.

I don't have a spray gun or air brush so looking at how to do a thin burst with spray cans (not the wisest choice but....)

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Originally Posted by a_novice

Not sure on the grain yet, just ordered last night :-)

So you would spray the black candy over a solid grey? or over a grey primer?

The IC-1 doesn't have a binding so phew! It was time consuming (but worth it) when i did that on my PBG Tele.

I don't have a spray gun or air brush so looking at how to do a thin burst with spray cans (not the wisest choice but....)

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Um... no.... if the body has nice grain then a coat of clear sealer over the timber, then sand smooth, thblack candy over the sealer. primer or grey paint will just hide th grain. Black candy *instead* of grey primer/paint will still give you a grey unless you put too many coats on, but show off the grain if it has a nice flame to the top , it would be a shame to completely hide it. Think of it as a tint . or you could use a grey stain if you can find it. If the grain turns out to be boring then go with primer /paint. As for the burst, you can do it with a rattle can.... the big manufacturers use a full sized gun to do bursts, I'm more inclined to use an air brush, but if you don't have that as an option, the can will do.

Thanks Rabbit!

Hi All, i've actually changed my mind on what i'm going to do with my Iceman kit and really excited. Got some inspiration on seeing another kit build here with decal graphics on it so thought i might go down that path.

I'm looking for some advice on a good clear sealer.

I'm going to use Z-poxy to pore fill and create a nice smooth surface and wanting to know what the best clear sealer is to use on that before spray painting.

I'm planning on trying something different this time. I've been using SCA spray cans and they have been really good, but going to try Loop spray cans this time around. For example: https://www.thebutchershop.com.au/sh...rs/loop_400ml/ which are acrylic resin based. What would be the best to ensure compatibility?