Nuts, more nuts, and string spacing gauges

It's funny how everything you do leads to something else you need to do. Having now cut nuts for three basses and one guitar, I am noticing some problems in my non-build guitars. My '68 Fender Coronado has a little sitar buzz in the A string. I am not sure I'll do anything about that because, while it has a fender style nut, it has binding over the edges. I definitely don't feel competent to address this, and am afraid I could adversely effect the value of the guitar by trying.

Meanwhile other nut problems have been appearing. I have a hand-made flamenco guitar made here in Miami in 1994 by a luthier named José Castellón who seems to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. It's a quirky little guitar, but it has a great bright tone, and stays in tune better than any other classical style I have ever played. That said, I have always thought it might have been an early prototype for Castellón because of some odd features. Like the fact that the back and sides are poplar rather than Spanish cedar, tool marks in various places, etc. I got it from someone who played it hard, so it's not very valuable, although it's one of my favorite guitars.

A few days ago it developed a very significant buzz in the E and A strings. Looking closely, its because part of the nut on the bass side seems to have broken away. It doesn't look too difficult to replace, and a I have nut blanks. What I don't have is a spacing guide. I would just follow the slots in the existing nut, but they are clearly off a bit. Not enough to affect how it plays, but I might as well correct it if I am making a new one. I know Stew Mac sells spacing gauges for a small fortune, but this has got to be something for which there is a PDF file that will do the same thing. Anyone know where to get one?

I will need it on another guitar as well. I have a Fender F-265C MIJ acoustic. Fender says it only sold these for one year in the US--1987. I purchased mine brand new in 1985, so *I* think it should be pretty valuable if for no other reason than the time travel. Unfortunately, these are not particularly rare and not worth much $$$*, although everyone who has ever played mine thinks it sounds and plays great. Nevertheless, the sides of the nut near the low E and now starting on the high E have chipped away. While it sounds fine, I think it's only a matter of time. If I need to replace it, I'd like to increase the string spacing a little. I have fat fingers... I also noticed that I find the string spacing on the Strat I just finished to be much more comfortable. The Strat nut width is 44.4, the acoustic's nut width is 43.3. Is that close enough to try to replicate the Strat spacing on the acoustic if I am cutting a new nut anyway?


*It has a bound body and neck, Gotoh machines, mahogany neck, rosewood sides, back and fingerboard, Florentine cutaway. I defy anyone to find a new guitar that sounds and plays as well, has equivalent quality woods and build quality anywhere near what mine cost new. The fact that you can get one for under $300 on eBay or Reverb is just nuts.

String spacing calculator here https://manchesterguitartech.co.uk/f...ut-calculator/ if you want to measure the distances yourself.

Though the StuMac Ruler doesn’t seem that expensive to me. US$25 or so + postage. A company/outlet called Elmer sell one, but that’s a bit more money.

Photos of the nuts would be helpful to see if there are any other issues or possible repairs.

The one that is basically unplayable in current condition is the Flamenco...

Attachment 37494

Although it looks worse, the Fender acoustic is still playable and sounds fine...

Attachment 37495

...I am just not sure for how much longer.

Don't much want to do anything to the Coronado. At most the superglue and bone dust trick. I really don't want to take the nut out, however. You can see why...

Attachment 37496

Thanks for any and all advice!

I'm afraid that the ends breaking off nuts are what often happens when the nut isn't filled down to at least be level with the top of the strings. the two end sections of the nut are relatively thin and the higher they are, the more leverage on the base when the top gets knocked or caught.

I'd hoped that in the first two cases there might be enough of the ends left to simply file down the top of the nut, but there really isn't enough height left to do that. Definitely replace them.

The Fender is tricky. CA and baking soda is probably the best method to use here. I can't see an easy way to remove the nut without risking damaging the end of the fretboard or the binding. Even sawing down the middle of the nut isn't going to do any good, as you can't saw the whole depth because of the binding, so you'll only break the top part of the nut off, making it impossible to remove the bottom part.

You may be able to wiggle it lightly backwards and forwards with pliers, but if it's stuck in well, then I can't see it coming loose unless you use enough force to risk splitting the headstock end of the board.

Using a really thin sharp knife you may be able to fee the binding at the sides back to the 1st fret on one side, leaving enough room to tap the nut from the other side and hopefully shift it slightly so you can then remove it vertically. But you'd have to tap just the top part/end of the nut, which just risks it breaking off and setting things back even more. If you could do it, you'd stick the binding back with acetone and maybe touch up with some poly or a couple of wipes of TruOil or similar.

A hot hair dryer might soften the glue enough to just pull it out upwards with pliers, but there's always the risk of finish or other glued areas becoming unstuck and it depends on what glue they've used.

So try the CA and baking soda trick, and don't forget to mask off the board either side. I normally tape up the front and rear sides of the nut as well, to form a well that the CA can't escape from, so it goes right up to the front face of the nut. Is the Coronado nut plastic or bone?

Yeah, I have pretty much come to the same conclusions. I'll probably attack the Flamenco first, since the others are still playable. The Fender acoustic next... And if at all with the Coronado, using baking soda and CA. If you look very closely in the pic, you can see there is some crazing on the binding near the nut. The binding has finish on it so it may be in that, but if the binding is cracked, I could break off a chunk doing anything more invasive. Not worth the risk on a guitar with some value, particularly since I don't play it much.

I am not sure what the Coronado's nut was made of. It's such an odd duck. It has a fender style nut, a bolt on neck and 6-in-line tuners, but other than that it's not ver "Fender" like. It was designed by Roger Rossmeisel, is a thin hollow-body (not semi-hollow) and has DeArmond pickups, so it's not very Fender-like in some respects. Lots of premium features, but not premium enough for the inlays to be genuine MOP. The nut could be bone or plastic. I am just not sure. I don't know a way to test it without potentially damaging it, particularly if it is plastic.

Difficult to get any firm info on Fender nuts. General feeling is that they used bone up until the CBS takeover, then at some point fairly soon after they switched to plastic. So the later the date of the guitar, the more chance of it being plastic. A gentle file on the top and a sniff should tell you if it’s bone or not. Nitro paint on it though.

Its post CBS, but not much. 1968. I don't know if that's far enough to put it in the plastic era. There's quite a lot about it that I am guessing Leo Fender would not have done...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

I have enough of a break in the action to be thinking about replacing the nut on my Fender acoustic. As I was contemplating knocking the old one out I noticed that the bottom of the nut is not perpendicular to the bridge side.

How the heck do I get that shaped properly? Has anyone done one of these? I am assuming I can't just buy one with a properly obtuse angle?Attachment 39589

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Well, I have given up for now on figuring out how to cut the bottom of the nut angle. I ordered a TUSQ nut that comes with an angled bottom. It is evidently the way Martins made all their nuts until the 1990s, and they still make them that way on higher end models. I just got the nut today. Looks about right, and hoping the angle will fit my MIJ Fender as well as the Martin.

I was thinking that the action on my steel string acoustic is about right...so I'd try to keep it about the same as it is now when making the new nut....

But I just checked them with feeler gauges and they vary by quite a lot...and oddly:

E .019
A .030
D .030
G .022
B .021
E .009

This can't be right. I *think* I like the action relatively low. Does anyone have advice on this. I have seen advice from StewMac to set them between .022 and .020. I have also seen .018...and even lower for the strings at the treble end.

I have also seen something that suggests that there is a way to use a capo to measure with a capo at the 2nd and 3rd frets to determine the height at the 1st... Does anyone really get this trick?

Curious how others do this...

I am thinking I'll try this method...

http://www.bryankimsey.com/nuts/nuts3.htm

You always need to relate the nut slot depth to the fret height. 0.020" (0.51mm) above first fret height would be OK, but above the fretboard itself, far too low.

For me, 0.020" above the fret is higher than I like (as I normally get that or just over at the 12th fret on the top E on an electric). and I probably get it nearer 0.2mm/0.09" by trial and error. Error means a new nut, so I keep a stock of those.

When cutting a new nut with very shallow nut slots, I now tend to place another nut file across the neck by the nut (normally a 0.056") so I can cut down to a reasonable depth without having to keep checking the depth. This also then allows me to set up the guitar action with reasonably low fret slots and then finish off the nut slotting once the action has been set.

If I was setting up lots of guitars for a living and wanted to cut each slot once and not revisit it, or working on a rare/old instrument where you don't want to risk replacing the nut, then I'd probably use feeler gauges and play things safe with gap distances. But as I've got the time, I prefer doing it the 'cut a few strokes more' and see where I am method, with the strings on the guitar so I can see the effect in real time.

Maybe if I could find some 9.5" and 12" radius bocks/gauges of varying heights, I'd get those and use those, but personally I struggle with flat feeler gauges on a round fretboard.

I find the "basic method" as he calls it, works just fine. To each his own.
Whilst nut work requires practise to get consistent results and learn what not to do, it isn't rocket science.
If I'm cutting a nut from scratch or starting with a pre-slotted blank, I do use feeler gauges for roughing in. Again, this is what works for me.

My gap targets (with capo on 3rd fret) are .008" E6 & A; .006" D & G; .004" B & E1. I know that doesn't create a perfect radius, but I've never had a complaint from a customer or problem on my own guitars using those measurements.

FWIW, when I first started doing nut slots I did step them evenly (.008"/.007"/.006" etc.) but I didn't notice a difference between that and my current method.

That's helpful!

Does it make a difference if it's an acoustic or electric?

You might want a slightly bigger gap for acoustic over electric, but it would be very minimal. In general the gap is bigger on the heavier strings as they have slightly larger amplitudes, so a 0.056” bottom E acoustic string will need a bit more room than a 0.042” electric bottom E. But the same would be true if you fitted heavy strings to an electric, especially if you downtuned. And acoustic players may pick/strum harder than an electric player would in order to get more volume. But it’s mainly string diameter that drives the gap distance, not the fact that it’s an acoustic or electric guitar.

I should have stated that the measurements I posted above are general targets for your average electric.

TBH, it can very much be a case by case approach. For example I've done some set-ups recently for a couple of guys that use B Standard tuning. So they're using heavier strings with much less string tension, and things like nut action, neck relief need to be considered differently than an average electric using E Standard.

Like most things guitar, it's not always a one size fits all.

OK, so maybe a bit higher than McCreed standard for an acoustic. Thanks!

It's interesting how much advice I see on this that does not involve a precise measurement.

I have no idea why it added the image. FWIW, I know that the those are not the McCreed values ;-)

If you wanted to play slide guitar, then you’d certainly want higher nut slots to stop you fretting the strings when you pressed down with the slide on the lower frets.

I may be misinterpreting that chart, but the way I'm reading it, those measurements are from the bottom of the string slot to the fretboard (literally "at the nut") not the clearance at the first fret with a string depressed at the third. Without knowing the height of the first fret, those numbers are more less meaningless.

A few days ago I installed a new nut in my acoustic. I got a tusq nut because it was the only one I could find that had a slanted bottom. For some reason my MIJ Fender has a nut that meets pretty much the exact specs of old Martins.

I cut the nut carefully, and 5 of the 6 strings sounded great. The D string, however, had a rattle. Not so much of a buzz like what you'd expect over a fret, but a rattle...like something is lose. Since it did not have this rattle before putting in the new nut, I assumed that was it. I measured, and the slot seemed right. In an abundance of caution I used a fret leveling tool to take down the fret a couple of thousands of an inch for the D string. When that did not work, thought maybe I had gotten the slot too flat. So I increased the break angle at the back of the nut. When that did not work, I thought maybe I had gotten the slot too wide. So I filled the slot with baking soda and superglue. This morning I re-cut the nut with a narrower slot...just about the exactly width of the string measured with a Vernier caliper. Cut carefully, and left the slot so that the string would be a little high.

None of these things have gotten rid of the buzz. I have a new nut arriving today, but before I ruin it too... what else could be causing this rattle? It sounds like it's coming from the nut. When I put my ear to the fretboard that's where it's loudest. I don't think it's fret buzz. Any thoughts? ...and thanks in advance!

Have you tightened the nuts on the tuners (if they aren't held on by rear screws)? They vibrate loose over time, ride up a bit and then the washer can vibrate between the tuner nut and the headstock.

Good suggestion from Simon. I've experienced the loose tuner nut before!

Also, are you positive it's coming from the nut? It may sound crazy, but sometimes the sound (buzz, rattle, sizzle) can be getting generated at the bridge but convincingly sound like it is at the nut (and vice versa).

Secondly, have you tried a different D string? A defect in the string can cause inexplicable sonic weirdness too.
Maybe try checking the D string's retainer is seating properly under the bridge.

That's all I got...

I got the buzz to stop. As Simon suggested it seems to be that the nuts on the tuners had loosened. Five of the six were loose enough for the washer to rattle. McCreed gets a few points too because I put my ear up to the machines as well, but could still swear that I was hearing the rattle from the nut rather than the tuners.

Who would have thought that a machine nut might come loose after only 36 years? I can hear you thinking "pretty much everyone." I should probably write Mr. Gotoh a thank you letter that the machines haven't given me a lick of trouble in all this time, other than the need to adjust the tuner nut every 36 years or so.

Thank you!

Great result! (and easy fix!)

Mr. B's intuition pays off again.

"Who would have thought that a machine nut might come loose after only 36 years?"

Not me. You must be jumping around to much when playing.

You're not playing it enough. They generally come loose (e.g. need a 1/4 turn or so to tighten) very quickly on a well-used guitar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

You're not playing it enough. They generally come loose (e.g. need a 1/4 turn or so to tighten) very quickly on a well-used guitar.

---

Well there's no telling how long the nuts have been loose. When I looked at the wear and tear on the fingerboard it certainly looked like it had been played. That may be a near future project. That said, I'll try jumping around more ;-)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fender3x

For some reason my MIJ Fender has a nut that meets pretty much the exact specs of old Martins.

---

Probably because they copied an old Martin for early acoustic guitar designs (a lot of Fender acoustics have the Martin shape headstock) and have stuck with the dimensions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Probably because they copied an old Martin for early acoustic guitar designs (a lot of Fender acoustics have the Martin shape headstock) and have stuck with the dimensions.

---

That would make sense, although it seems harder to build that way. Martin doesn't even do it on guitars worth 5x what mine's worth. I thought about the degree of difficulty and time involved with shaping a nut blank to get that angle, and decided to see if I could buy one pre-cut. The only one I have found was tusq and labelled "Martin." If they had used any other angle I'd have been SOL.

It's a funny guitar. Beautiful rosewood sides and back--which is bookmatched. Three tone sunburst spruce top. Now that I have the old nut off, I can see that it was bone. Bound all around, including the point of the Florentine cutaway and the bottom of the heel. It has a big, full sound, and great tone. Worth about $200 on a good day. One of the best, worthless things I have ever owned.

I am about to start cutting a nut from a "raw" bone blank for my flamenco guitar. It's a lot like a classical guitar. Same basic shape, flat fingerboard, etc.* From a setup standpoint, the biggest difference is the action. Flamencos have a much faster action, and are often a bit buzzy. The action on mine is way lower than any classical I have seen...but I confess that I have not ever held or played another flamenco guitar, so I don't have much of a standard for comparison.

With normal playing there are no buzzes on any but the low E string when fretted (or capo'd) at the the 1st fret. With a capo at the first fret, there is .007 clearance between the high E string and the 2nd fret. All the other strings appear to have .009 clearance at the 2nd fret. The exception being the low E, which only has clearance of about .002. It's the only string with a buzz when capo'd, so I want to raise it just a hair.

I have read a number different things about setting up a Flamenco:

1) Set it with the same clearance over the first fret that it has when over the 2nd fret when capo'd at the first.
2) Set it up exactly like a classical, because the action is set at the bridge not the nut.
3) Set it up by feel. (Not viable in my case since I don't have any feel.)
4) Set it up with the "third fret" method using a piece of paper to slide under the first fret with the 3rd fret capo'd.

Would welcome any thoughts! Left to my own devices I'll probably try to combine methods 1 and 4. I'll also probably use a bit of the "Barden method" and have a couple of additional nut blanks handy in case I mess it up.




*I thought this was a classical guitar for years. I got it in trade from a buddy with small hands, who found it uncomfortable to play. It has a sticker inside from a local luthier...but I have never found the guy and don't know if he still exists. I always thought it was a "first attempt" by a local luthier, because it has a poplar back and sides with occasional knots and big green streaks. There are also some visible tool marks and some improvised looking wood choices in the heel. But I loved the low action and volume. I also liked the spruce top and shellac finish. I thought these were idiosyncrasies, and did not realize that the action, volume and spruce top were all characteristics of a flamenco guitar.

I have a little more time than I thought to decide on a method. The nut blanks that I have are all 52mm wide. This is also the width of the pre-cut nut I just got from Amazon... Unfortunately, the width of the current nut is 53.4mm.

Took some shopping, but I finally found oversized blanks at Amplified Parts in Arizona. More sanding than I had hoped for, but at least they exist!

Quote:

---

More sanding than I had hoped for, but at least they exist!

---

A flat file will get the job done quicker. Then switch to sandpaper once you have the size roughed in to <.5mm.
Same with profiling the top.

What about a new saddle? If the bottom E is buzzing when capo’d, then a new nut won’t fix that. You’ve either got a high fret end or one end of the saddle is too low or the neck has a twist in it (or some combination of those).

A file is a good idea.

I can take a better look at the saddle when I have the strings off. It looks OK with them on, and the neck appears straight enough. There is, however, a chip missing from the nut where the low E string meets it that is definitely suspicious.

https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...4&d=1601242305

So it definitely needs the nut. Of course the bridge is the same age, and probably quality and material, as the nut. Might be a good idea to order a bridge blank too....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

What about a new saddle? If the bottom E is buzzing when capo’d, then a new nut won’t fix that. You’ve either got a high fret end or one end of the saddle is too low or the neck has a twist in it (or some combination of those).

---

Fretted or capo'd there are no buzzes except at the first fret on the low E. Even on the low E there are no buzzes when fretted at the 2nd fret or higher. So I am thinking it's a high fret end. It's not severe, though. I'll try taking the end down a hair. If that does not work... I am ordering a bone bridge just in case. I waited until today for the nut blanks to arrive. The description didn't tell me whether the nuts would be bleached or natural, but their weren't many choices. Now that they have arrived, I can get a matching saddle for if need be.