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Hey Hoby I've heard of someone on the forum talking about it but not sure if it works.
I usually carefully mask the binding with good quality painters tape would be a safer option, and then scrape off or steel wool any bits the paint or stain bleeds under the tape
Someone used a latex based product that could be brushed on and then peeled off once staining process was finished. Only done one build with binding and still carefully trying to finish it off.
I used this stuff:
3M Plastic Tape Blue 1/4" X 36 Yards Part No.: 06405
It wasn't cheap, and there were a couple of places where the paint had become brittle by the time I took it off. But just a couple. Mostly it made a very nice line. The problem was more that I couldn't leave well enough alone. First there were some places where I had not taped carefully enough and paint leaked through. I had a hard time scraping to get the edges of the good and bad places to match.... Then I realized that I had not tapped to the very edge of the binding in places...so I thought I'd just scrape the last bit. And that's when I went nuts. Everything I tried to do at that point just made it worse. That includes trying to just treat it as a practice run when I realized that I was going to have to reshoot most of the body.
Attachment 18439
I am tempted to just clear coat it now and pretend that I was going for road worn.
One problem I ran into is that once the opaque paint is on you cant tell where the binding ends and the wood begins. Now that I have the edges sanded back, I will measure to make sure I know exactly where the edge is.
I am also thinking of making a few of these sorts of tools for scraping:
Attachment 18440
Has anybody used one of these? Any tricks or caveats I should know about?
So here is what I have learned so far about finishing a DIY guitar for noobs like me...
First, prepare to be patient.
next, actually be patient.
The rest are in no particular order:
Avoid any guitar with binding. If you think you want binding, think again. Make really sure that's what you want before you start.
If the guitar has veneer, prepare to paint it a solid color. I have seen lots of stuff on sanding lightly, and there are some lovely pics on this board of beautifully finished veneers. How the builder managed to sand without damaging the veneer remains a great mystery to me. I have also read lots about getting rid of glue spots. However, my performance at this has been spotty (pun intended), and most attempts made a further mess of the veneer.
Adding more stain to damaged veneer makes things worse. Adding more anything to damaged finish makes things worse. Suck it up. Wait for things to dry. Sand it off. Start again.
Sand everything really smooth. Particularly once your veneer is hopelessly damaged. Get it nice and smooth.
Seal it with Truoil (which works nicely under car lacquer I have found) or better yet, filler primer from the same company that makes your paint.
If you're guitar has binding, pause occasionally to reflect on why you thought this would be so much better than a strat, tele or p-bass body? Then, make sure the binding is COMPLETELY CLEAN. After that, tape it up with expensive pin striping tape from 3M.
Paint with a solid color from an auto parts store unless you have really good spray equipment. No paint goes on easy in my rapidly growing experience, but lacquer coats melt into each other and that does help some.
Pull the tape off very soon after painting. Don't let the paint get super hard before pulling it off. Optimally the paint should be hard enough so that touching does not leave fingerprints, but not harder.
If there is scraping to do, do it just after pulling off the tape.
Be really careful with the paint before the clear coat goes on. It damages REALLY easily, and touch ups are a pain.
Reconcile yourself to two things: There will be some flaws. There will be some repairs.
Repairs require the patience to wait until the finish is hard enough to sand. Sand it out. Repairs are treated just like other painting. They require just as much patience.
Don't touch wet paint.
Don't touch wet paint with a glove that might leave color in the paint.
Don't touch wet paint.
Dont touch wet clearcoat.
Wait until they have dried. Sand, repaint, patience.
If there is a drip or run, see above.
I don't know where I heard that you should put decals over bare wood and then clear coat over the top of that. In my case the wood under the decal remained lighter than the wood around it. I have just sanded off the clearcoat, on the bare wood part of the headstock, and started clearcoating. Current plan is to put on two or three coats, sand with 800/1000/1500, then put the decal on, then continue clear coating.
A surgeon once told me that in med school they learn that "excellent" is the enemy of "very good." In medicine that means you should try not to let the patient bleed to death while you get the sutures just right. I have taken it to mean that if I want to play this beastie while I am still young enough to do so, I may have to tolerate a few flaws in the finish. The tool mark I did not see. A tiny flaw in the paint on the back of the headstock mostly covered by the tuning machines...eh! At this stage I have lost count of all the absolutely tiny flaws that I have made worse by trying to fix.
My daughter told me that when she makes something the little flaws tell her that she made it...and I am getting used to that idea. I don't know why it's so hard. My favorite guitar is a classical made by a local luthier here in Miami. I am sure it was an experiment. It has the occasional tool mark. The heel has a weird diagonal laminate in it. It's made of poplar and has all the requisite weird streaks in the wood. The finish is super thin, but certainly not perfect. It plays like a dream though, stays in almost perfect tune and has a really sweet voice.
Also, did I mention the part about patience, and not touching wet paint?
I like the part about not touching wet paint.
I have been making slow progress with my refinishing. It's not perfect, but it's definitely red--and I have decided I like it better than I like doing anything about it. Will post some pics when I have put all the parts on it, but before I do that...
I had one more thing to build/test. The wiring harness. Since these I am using Dano pickups, I thought it would make sense to use a Dano Wiring harness. The one that seemed most common was this one:
Common Dano wiring
...but it's really odd...which I started a thread about here:
Dano weirdness
...and it's almost impossible to source mini-pots with these values. To get everything to fit through an f-hole, I had to hot-rod some pots. The thread for how I did that is here:
Modding pots with a reamer
I did a rubbing on the bass and then glued the rubbing to thin piece of wood. I drilled where the rubbing showed me the holes so that I could drill in the right places to get a perfect template for where the controls would go.
Although this is a semi-hollow build, I wanted at least some shielding. Since I can't shield the cavity, I decided to try to use wire mesh tubes. I don't have a pic of how I did this but basically, i clipped the wire mesh to the length I wanted, and put an aluminum knitting needle through it to open it up. Then I tinned the ends with liberal amounts of solder so that the ends would stay open. Since solder does not stick to aluminum this worked pretty well. I then pulled out the knitting needle, and soldered the tube to the pots, which I had mounted in on the template.
I then ran all the wires to the pots through the tubes, and soldered all the wires and caps to the pots. However, this is the first time I have used Dano wiring, and it seemed odd. Also I was not completely confident that I had done it all right (even after checking about 30 times). So I decided I needed to test it before trying to install it through the f-hole.
I built a test bed out of some scrap lumber, an old guitar tuning peg array a small piece of metal for a tail stop and an old bass string. Here's a pic of it:
Attachment 20991
You can see the wiring harness template attached on top of it.
Here's a better pic of the important parts...
Attachment 20992
(The green wire is to ground the string)
Here's a pic of the back of the template:
Attachment 20993
The red tubes on the wire are just to clip the connections for the test. I'll solder and shrinkwrap them before putting them in the bass.
The good news is that everything worked. The better news the circuit was dead quiet. Since I did the test in my garage where there are LED and neon lights and a fridge, this is no small thing. These are single coils and they are NOT wound to buck hum even when running both, so I was very pleasantly surprised at how quiet they were. They are not particularly hot, and I'll need to have them close to the strings, but they sounded good. Especially in the both-on position, which was quite a bit louder and fuller than either of the one-pickup settings. Not a bit harsh, or too much treble. Very glad I sprung for the alnico version.
The tone circuit was a bit of a disappointment. The tone controls did not seem to do much at any setting. In a perfect world I would play with the values a bit to see if I could get them to work better. However, since the circuit is quiet, I have pretty much decided that I don't want to mess with it. Tone can always be adjusted on the amp or with a pedal. But a quiet semi-hollow with single coils...better the leave that be, I think.
Of course this is a just test on scrap lumber with just one open string. But at least it green-lights putting the harness in the bass. Will post some pics when I attach everything. Finish is not going to be perfect, but it should get some points for being unusual ;-)
nice looking harness fender3x, love the 1 string test rig, that's a cracker, might have to build one for testing pups and wiring !
Thanks Wokka. I just could not see going through the trouble of a semi hollow install without some sort of test...
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Good work on the harness. You could use the testing system as a djent instrument!
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that's it Ponch, you could let Seasick Steve or Jack White play the one string test rig axe !
Excellent. What value caps did you use on the tone pots, and is the neck tone cap wired as per the diagram to the neck volume lug not direct to ground?
It's wired like in the chart, so the bridge cap is wired to ground and the neck cap is wired to the neck volume lug.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdBits
Volume pots are 100K, Tone are 1M.
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I asked about the cap values as most of the modern Dano single coil circuits seem to have a 0.01uF tone cap for the bridge and 0.047uF cap for the neck. But, as you're wiring a bass, you may want to step it up and run a 0.047uF for the bridge and up to 0.1uF for the neck.
It's the sort of thing you can play around with on your one string tester and see which values give you the level of control/tone you want before installing your harness,
Oh! Yes those were the cap values I used. Will give the values you suggest a shot. Thanks!
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I'd try 0.022uF or 0.047uF for the bridge and 0.068uF or 0.1uF for the neck.
If you put a 0.047uF cap (or any value) on clip leads and attach it in parallel with a cap already soldered in place it will effectively sum their values to give you an idea of how it will sound. So, clipping a 047 in parallel with your existing 0.01 (clip on each leg) will give you a total 0.057uF value, and across the neck's existing 047 will give you ~0.1uF.
May save you a bit of de-soldering/soldering.
Thanks that's super helpful.
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Wow! Were you ever right! I attached a .047 cap with clips in both positions in parallel and it made a huge difference. That's a really big help that took very little extra effort. Thank you!! Just the right amount of treble roll off.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdBits
So now the bridge has .057, because I just soldered in a .047 in parallel with the .01. That was not practical with the other cap, mostly because it's a bit cramped, so I put in a .1 cap. Tried it again withe the *final* soldered in caps. Sounds great.
I am glad that I built the test bed. But mostly, though, thank you WeirdBits for the great suggestions!
Happy to help.
Hope you're still willing. I had everything working. It was working on the template. I even upped the value of the bridge cap (both are now at .1) and it all sounded pretty good. took it off the template, and tried it again. Sounded good.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdBits
Then I spent about two hours putting it in the bass. When I finally had it all in. Nothing. It has a nasty buzz, but absolutely no sound from the pickups. I pulled out the harness and found a broken connection. I fixed it, but that did not seem to make any difference.
Really frustrating. Every time I think I'm getting close...
So, I have given up for the evening. No idea why the harness is not working. If it were not so hard to source the pots, I'd be tempted to just build a new one rather than fix this one. I thought it might be a lifted ground, or something grounding out, but if it is, I have not been able to find it. Argh! Any thoughts about where I should look?
Thanks in advance.
OK, I found the problem. one of my connections broke when I put the pots in the guitar. Calling it a night anyway. Stay tuned to find out whether I am capable of re-soldering the ground and getting the harness gently enough into the cavity so that I don't break anything on the way in...
It's finally looking less like a project and more like a bass. As of a few minutes ago, all the electronics are in. I have strung it with two strings for test purposes. The nut is not yet at the right height and is in with no glue just for test purposes, and the guitar is strung with just two strings at the moment... Even so, I was able to play a short walking bass line on it and it sounded pretty good. It has a bit of a buzz when it's in the stand, but it's better when I am holding it. Not too bad for single coils, and the tone controls roll off a lot of it.
The flaw in my "shielding" approach was two-fold. First, I underestimated how flexible the harness would need to be to be able to work it through the f-hole and into place. The other problem was that for some reason it was difficult to get a good solder bond between the wire mesh tubes and the pot cases. So in the process of working them into place the first time, three of those bonds failed. I also broke a couple of other connections.
This time I was much more gentle, but still broke off the connection to the bridge ground wire. It's fortunate that I saw it at all, but I only saw it after the harness was entirely inside the cavity. I manage to solder it to the harness through the f-hole. That took some doing. All in all, I am pretty sure that it took me between 2 and 3 hours to fix the connections and work everything into place. Most of the time was working stuff into place.... But it's all in and working! Whew!!
Soldering through an f-hole, that's hardcore. Glad it's all working.
Maybe a few f-words spoken as well. ;)
In hindsight, maybe running ground wires as well as the braid would have been a better solution. Then even if the braid came loose at one end, it would still act as a shield whilst the wiring provided the ground continuity.
By the way, and for future reference, did you know that you can buy this type of wire? http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_E...16_inches.html
Attachment 21078
A lot easier than going the DIY route!
I have a friend who likes to say "too soon old, too late smart." Initially I thought that the braid would give the harness some stiffness and that would help me get it into position once inside the body. That might be true, but I didn't account for how difficult it would be to get it through the F-hole. I ended up doing something like what you suggest where the connections came loose. My original idea was (I thought) an elegant way of providing shielding and avoiding ground loops...but it worked better on the bench than in the bass.
I also thought about using shielded wire, but rejected it when because I need a bunch of different colored wires to remember where everything needed to go. That's when I started thinking about using the braid tubes...
You are right about the words too. I am pretty sure I know why they are called "F" holes now.
You can always wrap some colored tape round braided shielded cable (or white tape and coloured Sharpie pens) if you want to remember what's what.
I set the truss rod and bridge height. I just finished sanding, setting and cutting the bone nut I got from DB. I drilled the last three holes in the headstock install a rosewood truss rod screw cover. I put the pickups as high as I think I can get away with. These are lipstick tubes, so on the one hand I want them close to the strings because they don't tend to be super hot. On the other hand, they are metal, and need them to be far enough away from the strings so that I don't hit them when I play. I tend to use fingers rather than a pick and I can pull pretty hard. (I am considering using tape-wound strings partly for the sound, and partly to get round this problem...would be pleased for feedback on that idea. I haven't used them before).
I still need to tune the bridge, and install the pickup covers. And that prompted the oddest thought... I may actually be finished building this thing!
It will not win the ax of the month. I made too many mistakes with the finish. But the feel is pretty good, and it will definitely be unique.
As to the finish, I have learned a couple of things... There are a few nicks. I think the reason for this is that the Duplicolor paint I used is somewhat brittle. It also just does not bond as well as might be desirable with the Duplicolor primer I used. That's disappointing, but after three attempts to finish the beast, I have decided to live with it. Ah, but the diary is partly so others avoid the mistakes that we have made...which leads me to an interesting thought:
I probably should have used more True-Oil. I used TO in lieu of primer on the pickup covers and bridge piece. Although I used the same paint on those pieces as the rest of the guitar, these pieces came out a slightly different shade of red than the rest of the bass. More importantly, however, the paint sticks better. Had I known that I'd have ditched the Duplicolor primer and just used TO.
Another thing I have learned is that if one is spraying outside, Miami has only a short window of time when it can be done without problems at least if you are using rattle cans. It's just too humid here. The closer to summer it got (and thus, more humid) the harder time I had paint and clear coat to go on without beading up.
If I had it to again, I might use the cans for color, but I would use TO instead of clear coat. I wrote to the company to ask them if it would be OK. They said they had no idea, and suggested I try it. I did. It worked great. Unfortunately, I decided it would be better to use Duplicolor clear coat. Which was fine in January, but sucked in April.
So, there are a few little chips in the paint, and it's a bit more matte than I might have done otherwise. That, said, it is bright read, the headstock and all the chrome look cool. It plays resonably well. And no one, anywhere, has one like it.
Pic's to follow ;-)
A few pics
Attachment 22033
Attachment 22034
Attachment 22035
Attachment 22036
I think I am going to call it an ESB-4DT
The DT could be for "Dano-Trapeze," or for "looks like it was assembled by someone with the DT's."
One more quick note... Now that I have it all assembled. I was a little afraid that the trapeze tailpiece would not have good sustain. That does not seem to be the case. I could not use the three point bridge for reasons outlined above, but even people who did not have my problems have had trouble with the thee-pointers pulling pulling up or out. I have heard of that happening on Thunderbirds which are flat. With the curve in an ES, the three point is just asking for trouble.
Pull out can't happen with a trapeze because the bridge is being pulled into the body rather than away from it. I used three long (2") screws to mount the trapeze and that may help with sustain, but I am really happy with it. Open strings ring a good, long time.
Of course, I had to make my own tailpiece since I could not find one that was short enough with the right string spacing, but if one could be found, I think this might be a better factory option than the three point.
Don't be too hard on yourself, I think it looks great, with a definite '60s guitar feel to it. It looks more like something Dano or Harmony would have made, rather than Gibson. But you've made it your bass rather than a slavish copy, and you should be proud of it. You've also learnt a lot along the way, so the next one will be even better.
What does it sound like plugged in?
Thanks, Simon, I have indeed learned a lot! I was definitely going for the '60's vibe. I called it Anachronistic because it's "out of time." Got a lot of old style parts and ideas that have generally not all found their way into the same bass.
It's a really unique kit that I haven't seen anywhere else, and Adam is to be commended for commissioning it. But I also see why no company has built one quite like it. Most semi-hollows are short-scale. This allows the bridge to be closer to neck and gives more room for a conventional tailpiece. I see why Gibson designed stop tailpieces and thee-points, but the forces working to pull their pins out are more extreme a curved top than on a EB or Thunderbird. So, short tailpiece, two point bridge seem like the way to go.
Pickups were dictated by what would fit in the humbucker routs. They needed to be wide enough for bass spacing. They needed to shift a little south because of the neck pocket being a little off. Preferably they'd be narrow and rounded at the end. Not many pickups fit that configuration ;-)
So, how does it sound? Good! I'll see if I can make a decent recording of it and put the samples up. Nothing Gibson about the way it sounds. Nothing vaguely muddy. Not exactly Fender sounding either. It sounds best with both pickups on. Not as scooped as a Jazz. It has some booty, but more treble than a Precision.
To get it the way I want, I need to bleed off quite a bit of the top end, and turn off the tweeters on my cab. When I do that, I really like the way it sounds. Not sure whether I'll ever use either of the single-pup settings. You lose quite a bit of gain and it seems to get thinner sounding as well. I now understand why the volume pots are 100K. Even with alnico magnets the lipsticks have plenty of top end.
Not sure how the pickup placement was determined, but it seems to work well for these pups. The neck pickup is just about where a p-bass pickup would be. The bridge pickup a lot farther from the bridge than a it would be on a jazz. I don't hear much scoop, or big boost in treble with both pickups on, and that may be why.
I wanted something a bit different, and it certainly is that, and in a good way. As the strings wear in, I hope it will get even better.
looks real good mate..
even though red is really not my colour i do like it on your bass..
mine is now at the polishing and i\m having some trouble getting a decent shine..
I'll be making one for a friend when the kit arrives in November. It's simple custom order with no pickup routs or tuner holes drilled so I can decide on which pickups and tuners to fit. All passive though, nothing active (nowhere to easily put a battery for a start). I was thinking of fitting the Hipshot Supertone bridge and making sure that I get and fit the longest stud inserts I can find to counter any pulling action.
The red made me think of the Epiphones of my youth. Yours is amazing and a color that would not have occurred to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSik
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I wanted to avoid routing because the surface is curved. If you have the right equipment, though it's a better option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
I looked at both the hipshot and the babicz replacements for the 3-point. For me the problem was that they seem to mount flat, and the space on an ESB-4 is curved. I have since learned that hipshot will send you a fit kit so that looks like a good option.
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I love it. Great job.
Thanks, Fretworn.
I have been playing it all afternoon. I think I have the setup as good as it's going to get. Have to get used to the neck that is wider than a j-style. But it sounds good with and weigh in at about 7.5 lbs (3.4 Kg) my back likes it too.
Simon, you might consider lighter tuning machines. It has a little neck dive. Nothing a decent strap won't correct, but something to consider.
That said, the stock tuners are smooth as glass and the bass has been staying in tune despite the fact that the temperature changes.
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Finally caught up with this thread and impressed with how things turned out. Looks great.
Same here Waz. great work Fender. I love the red. It would be cool to hear a recording.:cool:
I think that Fender3x will be still suffering from the effects of Hurricane Irma for a while, so a recording may not be the first thing on his mind. Really hope you didn't suffer too much, Fender3x.