I decided to go the six-saddle route as well, but if you want to keep it stock you might consider ordering a set of compensated saddles:Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Attachment 45587
Printable View
I decided to go the six-saddle route as well, but if you want to keep it stock you might consider ordering a set of compensated saddles:Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Attachment 45587
Thanks for that - I had tried a "normal" hammer - probably hurt the frets!Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
I had first tried putting apiece of wood on the fret and hammering that - but it only resulted in the fret denting the wood.
I also didn't use a brace behind the neck - so it probably "bounced"......
Well - we only learn from mistakes!
I'll have to get a "fretting hammer" and a neck brace.... unless I can find substitutes.
It was - this one uses a glue that might be harder to find (although I've never looked for a super glue with a few minutes curing time - most I've seen cure in seconds).......Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
I think that "jaws" thing would have a couple of uses - not only repairing frets but putting new ones in. it'd make it worthwhile ordering a neck without frets, or take them out, and put in stainless steel rather than getting a "fret press" (and saving a lot of bench space)... I wonder if its available locally (anything from the US is "pricy" and the freight charges are somewhat ridiculous)i
It's not the intonation that I don't like - I can probably work that out - it's more that they're uncomfortable if you put the heel of your hand on them to partially mute the string (both with the grub screws and the twisted end of the strings (i prefer top loaded bridges).Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
It's a pity as I like the look of the three barrels, particularly if brass, also the six-barrel bridges (but I understand these have a few problems.....)
I had a Strat bridge where the grub screws were bothering my hand. I got advice from someone here (McCreed, maybe?) to get shorter grub screws. I found an assortment cheap somewhere so now anytime a grub screw bothers my palm, I replace it with a shorter one ;-)
I like the Stew Mac tool as well. They are always great for the independently wealthy luthier. They are, ridiculously expensive, no mater where you live. $420 US as shown in the vid. If I find a loose fret, I will either use the radius block trick, or adapt a one handed clamp to do it.
I think the wood block is a fine idea. You'd want a relatively hard wood. I have a hammer that I have a cheap hammer with replaceable hard plastic ends that has worked relatively well for me, but you do need to have something reasonably hard under the neck, as you found out.
BTW the Superglue he uses in the vid dries in 3-5 seconds, so you have to move fast ;-) ... I think it's just ordinary CA glue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
How do you adapt a "one handed clamp to it"..... I'm getting ideas as I type - but if you've already got it down I'd love to see how you actually do it.
Do you have a piece of wood with a "bump" on either end to press down on the fret ends?
I've never been "good" with fast drying glue" ... always find a way to ruin it!Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Did a bit more reading and even with CA glue it takes a minute or two to fully cure.
As to how... I was referring to one of these clamps:
Attachment 45590
I haven't done it for fixing frets, but I have done something similar to clamp a neck. Here's my idea...
In the pic, the clamp has two yellow pads. I would leave one in place for the bottom of the neck. On the top I would pull off the yellow pad and make sure the plastic was very flat. I'd make a caul out of a piece of hardwood that was about 1/2 inch thick, 1/2 inch tall, and a little wider than the fretboard. I would would put a radius on one of the 1/2 inch sides. I'd use double sticky tape to stick the flat side of the caul to the non-padded side of the clamp.
The trick would be making the radius. I have done this before to make cauls for clamping the neck, and something similar to make pickup rings that matched the radius of an archtop guitar. Here's how I made clamping cauls:
I have a 12 inch radius block (which is the radius of all PB necks and most of the "radius unspecified" necks you find on the internet). With the radius block I would put a radius on a piece of scrap wood. Softwood is fine for this part. Once I have a radius on the scrap wood, I slap a piece of sandpaper on it and use it to put a reverse radius on my hardwood caul. Not fast or elegant, but I am guessing it would work to fix a few frets.
I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Interesting.
I do not have a radius block. But you are making an ingenious suggestion.....
On that train of thought - a 12" radius is where the circle would have a 12 inch radius - so any cylinder with a 24 inch diameter would make a good "reverse radius" to slap some sandpaper on..... like a large pot plant holder?????
Any cylinder with a 24" diameter would do it. Double sticky tape a piece of sandpaper on it and sand away. The plant should not even be bothered with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
If you don't have a planter the right size but you do have a router, you can also use a circle jig to cut a 12" radius on a piece of scrap wood.
If you don't have a router...is this the sort of thing that men's sheds have? If I ever get to Australia, that will definitely be something I will visit. They exist in the US, but are not common. The nearest one to me is an hour and a half's drive...and is the only one in Florida.
Yes - I thought about routing a circle (or quarter circle) ... but it'd be a thick slab to be useful..... and a big one to make a circle
Men's sheds - yes I think there are about 3 or 4 within 5 to 10 minutes drive (probably more). Few are actually called "men's sheds" and will simply be "woodworking shops".... there are a number of women who will also turn up to make something.
(There is the one "celebrated" time when an old lady turned up... the guy running the shop was concerned for her safety.. and asked if she'd ever worked with wood before..... she replied "yes, I made a violin once"...from scratch!...)
We have the normal Machinery.... bandsaws, table saws, drop saws, sanding machines, thickenessers, jointers as well as a lot of both power and hand tools etc....."keeps us off the streets" - and for some of us, away from our wives!
I've thought of another use for your "reverse radius" technique.... Neck sockets.
slap some sandpaper on the heel of a neck and use that to sand a way at a very soft wood to make a jig for the neck socket.
Ear-marked for the next body that I'm making.....
In fairness, I have *used* the radiusing technique but I did not invent it ;-)
One thing to note... If all you are doing is making a radiused caul with a router, the piece of wood doesn't need to be all that big. 1/2" thick, 4" long, 2.5" wide should be plenty. The piece needs to be 12 inches from the center, but technically it only needs to be a bit thicker than the width of a fret, only a little wider than the fretboard. The piece of wood needs to be 12" away from the the anchor for the router trammel, but the piece itself doesn't need to be very long.
I bought my radius block because it cost less than $20 and would have taken me a while to make the jig to put a radius on a long block. T
If you are making blocks for a lot of different radii, maybe it would justify purchasing or making a jig.
Australia is truly the leader in crafting sheds. I am at a conference on aging at the moment, and am becoming increasingly interested in the health benefits.
I'm actually more interested in the technique for making the neck socket.
it's easy to get the sides of the socket right - not so easy to get the end (particularly if the neck's heel is rounded as in a strat neck - and uneven).
A question - pardon my ignorance....
If I was to put a output jack on the front of a guitar, but from the back rather than on a control plate, what kind of jack would I need?
The jack that came with the Tele kit from pitbull does not look as though the thread is long enough....
For a ‘top’ wood mount in a semi or solid body a Switchcraft long thread jack is the type normally used. Care is needed when drilling from the back to go just deep enough so you can get enough thread through but not make the wood too thin and weak.
Are you just thinking of mounting the jack that way and still using a control plate, or getting long thread pots too and mounting them all from the back without a plate?
A Strat style plate would also give you a top mount option, using a standard thread jack, or you could do an angled recessed barrel jack… but that’s adds other complexities and probably tears 😭
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
The old AG style kit had a top jack plug which came from the back control cavity. The top thickness was around 5 mm to allow enough room for the washer and nut. The thread for those jack sockets was about 10 mm long. What is the thread length of your jack socket?
I'm thinking of it a san option for a second try.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdBits
This time without a control plate - So i"d need longer threaded pots as well.
I ended up making a control plate - and I'm quite happy with it - but the cost of electroplating it with chrome is more than the rest of the guitar so far......
I think a start style plate is good for strats - I can't help but feel it's be out of place on anything else.
Angled recessed barrel jack" - simply sounds a lot of work (anything like what the Ibinez "S" series use?)
thanks for the link.
Hi, It's more like 5 to 7 mm I've worked out that it could fit if the wood was about 3 mm thick - which I'd not think anywhere enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
I think it'd have to be 5 mm at least?
I was unaware this type of jack came with a longer thread - I thought a barrel style would be needed - and I've read posts where they were found to be problematical.
You should be fine with a long Switchcraft or Pure Tone jack. The shaft is 9.5mm on both. That gives you enough for 6mm thickness of the wood, plus a washer and nut.
I would avoid the barrel jack for a variety of reasons... Not the least is that it's probably too long to mount on the top of the guitar. Barrel jacks are most frequently used on the sides. Even there I don't think they are a very good solution.
I have found a way to round the edges of a control panel....Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Once it was cut to the right width (using the laminate knife mentioned above) = I tape an existing control panel to it and use it as a and use that as guide to sand (using the disc on a belt/disc sander and then finish by hand sanding). The harder control panel will not sand anywhere as easy as the aluminium - then move the control panel down to get the length I want, tape it down again and shape the other end.
The same taping allows me to easily drill the screw holes etc as well.
In my wanderings on the net to find "options", I came across this, which is a lot less that the "StewMac" option which looks very much the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
I saw that too. It's what got me thinking about what I have around the house that I might make one of those with. That's when I stared thinking about the one handed clamps. Those adapted "vice grips" would put on a lot more pressure. The only advantage I can see to the one handed clamp is that I could make a fret press with "found objects" around my house...and I'd still be able to use the clamp as a clamp when finished. That is, if it would put on enough pressure. If not, then, once again, my penchant for cheapness would have bitten me in the trasero.
I tried the clamp option with a number of "attachments" - but with limited success - possibly "enough to get by".... I think the problem could be if the frets are possibly glued in?Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
Possibly more a "putting them in" thing rather than a "fixing them up" thing.
Anyway - the second try is well under way, I've got a new neck, levelled the frets and shaped the headstock and have also shaped a new body. Soon to rout the neck socket and cavity (this time I think I'll put the pot and Jack in from the back).
I've just realised that while I started with a tele pattern and made some changes ... I've sort of ended up with a smaller version of a "Gretsch Streamliner Jet Junior" .... just with a "Fender type neck". laughed at myself for poring over patterns with a pencil for all that time!
Attachment 45680
Now I've just found this - it seems obvious when you see it - I wonder if it works?
I see what you mean comparing to the Gretsch. To my eye it looks like you got it pretty much exactly between a tele body style and a streamliner Jet... Sort of a StreamTele...
Attachment 45681
... You also seem to have put a really nice, symetrical S-curve into the shape of the upper bout and lower cutaway, that is unique, and maybe more pleasing than either the Gretsch or the Fender "parents"
I've still got a bit of a low "e" fretbuzz.... in considering all the variables, one is how far in teh neck ins... as I made the body, I guessed as to how deep the neck socket would be.
Does anyone know how deep the neck socket is in a strat kit?
The PB ST kits and the TL kits for hardtail bridges are about 18 mm deep for the neck socket route.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Thanks TD,Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
that may or may not be "the culprit - but if the neck socket is normally 18mm, then I should bring mine down to that depth also (at the moment its 16.5 to 17 mm)...just so I can say "it's not that".
By the way, is the back of the neck heel normally slightly rounded (not the end of the heel, the back)?
The back of the neck heel is flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
For the low E buzz:
Is it for all frets or just some?
Is your neck set to slightly concave? Can you raise the low E bridge saddle a touch?
It was for all frets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Davies
The nut, when the kit arrived, was very high, so I sanded it down a bit (which made a massive change for the better - just left a bit of fret buzz) I made the adjustment based on the height of the nut on my telecaster (Jet brand). I may have sanded the low E side a hair too low - but the nut is still just over a millimetre higher from the fretboard than the nut on my telecaster.
I've levelled the frets, adjusted the "relief" and the bridge saddle height but it took a bit to get rid of the buzz - which has gone mostly, if the string is plucked "with vigour" there is still a bit.
The "action" is now possibly a bit high, I do tend to "catch" that string when "I help my daughter" (it seems the more I practice the better she gets - of course, she thinks it's her!) but obviously if I lower it I run into the fretbuzz again.
This has made me think that if the fretboard was a bit lower (if the neck socket a tiny bit deeper (no more than a mil or so) that might be the cause - and I can lower the saddle height/action just a tad.
Otherwise it's working rather well acoustically (it's not wired yet), a touch "twangy" and high pitched and to my ear a bit louder than expected - but I'm putting that down to the Douglas Fir, the 24.75" scale length and the lighter strings (9's).
I think that either:
lowering the neck (and fretboard), or raising the saddle,
will have the same effect. Both will raise the string action along the fretboard. If you lower the fretboard, you will then need to adjust the saddle heights to get a good action! Easier to just raise the saddles. I do not think a 1 to 2 mm higher neck should be a real concern.
For "catching the string" - If you raised the low E saddle, did you also raise the A, D, G to match the 12 inch curvature of the fretboard?
For the "twangy" - I think that is the same for any solid body played acoustically.
Yes, that's the idea.... lower the fretboard so the saddle and nut hight can also be lowered just a bit.
The other saddles are pretty much right.
But I missed your other answer - "The back of the neck heel is flat"....
The back of the neck heel is slightly rounded in the 24.75" necks..... at least that's the case for the two that I've bought so far.
The backs of the headstocks are flat - but the heel is slightly rounded so as to be (I'm estimating) a mm or so thicker along the middle, as if it has a radius of 16".
An easier (?) way to achieve the same thing might be to sand the back of the heel flat
The "twangy" is in comparison to the Telecaster or my daughter's Stratocaster if they are also played acoustically. I believe those are both made of Basswood.
I'm thinking it's a feature of the Douglas Fir.
I wonder if Pine is the same?
I think TD meant that the neck is flat where it contacts the body. The fretboard side is radiused, so a little higher in the middle, but the bottom should be flat on any bolt on I have seen.
I am with TD on the choice. Raise the saddle. It doesn't sound like the problem is the nut. At least not the main problem. If it were, the low E would only buzz at the first fret, but not on the others.
The first thing to check is the relief (truss rod adjustment). If/when it looks right, then adjust the saddle until there's no buzz (or very little). Since none of the other strings are buzzing, I would confine adjustments to the Low E string.
I would not lower the fretboard because that will make the action on the other strings higher.
I can't recall if you leveled the frets before setup? If the low E side of the frets is high, that could also cause the problem you are describing.
One thing I would REALLY recommend, is to put a capo at the first fret (so it plays F rather than E). See if you can get he buzz out of the low E string with the first fret capo'd before messing with the nut. If you can get it to stop buzzing that way it may stop buzzing with the capo off too. If the action on the low E is high enough to bother you once you have the buzz out, then the bass side frets may be a little high.
Most kit necks have 12" radii. Using similar string gauges, I am guessing that the "ideal" string height may be a little higher on a G-length neck than an F-length because the string tension is lower. Since the tension is lowest on the low E string it makes sense that it would be the first to buzz.
The only things that I can think of that would make ONLY the low E buzz no matter where it's fretted are (a) action too low (adjusted at the saddle), (b) bass side frets are too high (fixable by fret leveling and re-set up, or spot leveling on all frets...which would be a lot of work...or (c) a combination of low action at the saddle and nut too low on bass side (raise saddle, raise bass side of the nut--or use the baking soda and super glue trick on just the Low E nut slot).
Yes - that's what I thought TD meant about the neck being flat too. Both of the shorter length necks I've bought seem to have a bit of a "roll" and are not completely flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by fender3x
The saddle is raised already quite high and the relief is rather noticeable.
I did "level the frets" (I used a flat beam about 2 cm wide and 30ish cm long with 250g sandpaper on it) but I do take note of your suggestion the frets might be higher on that side ... I think it's entirely possible if not probable - is there any way I can check?
I've also wondered if the lower tension in a 24.75" neck would result in a need for slightly higher action - but at the moment it's very high - particularly when you get to the12th fret and further..
Well that's odd. It should be totally flat. Still... even if the roll caused it to be a little higher on one side than the other you should be able to compensate with the bridge adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireEsque
Curiouser and curiouser! Can you take some measurements? Capo the first fret. Hold down the Low E at about the 14th or 15th fret. In playing position, how much space is there between the string and the fret at about the 7th fret? Gibson says it should be around .010 and .012 inches (.25 and .3 mm). Next check the string action. Leaving the capo in place, how high are the E strings above the 12th fret? Gibson says about 2mm for the low E and 1.5mm for the low E.Quote:
The saddle is raised already quite high and the relief is rather noticeable.
That's a bit short. If you are using a sanding beam, it's best for it to sand all the frets at once using just the weight of the beam as pressure. Mine is about 60cm. That may not be the culprit. You can check with a fret rocker to see if there are any high/low spots. But I am guessing you've done that.Quote:
I did "level the frets" (I used a flat beam about 2 cm wide and 30ish cm long with 250g sandpaper on it) but I do take note of your suggestion the frets might be higher on that side ... I think it's entirely possible if not probable - is there any way I can check?
Gibson recommends a little more relief than Fender, but it should not be "very" high. With the capo on at the 1st fret does the low E buzz? Fingering all the way up the neck?Quote:
I've also wondered if the lower tension in a 24.75" neck would result in a need for slightly higher action - but at the moment it's very high - particularly when you get to the12th fret and further..
The thing that bothers me about that idea is that you should be able to compensate for higher frets on one side at the bridge since you have six independent saddles. Particularly with a capo on the first fret, which takes the nut out of the equation.Quote:
... I do take note of your suggestion the frets might be higher on that side ... I think it's entirely possible if not probable - is there any way I can check?
There is a way to test this. you could put a fret radius gauge on each fret:
Attachment 45694
Most are 12" radius. If it is higher on one side, a 12" radius block should fix that problem. It's quite a bit of work to go to, however, so you'd want to be sure that's the problem.
Firstly, thank you for all your suggestions.
"That's a bit short. If you are using a sanding beam, it's best for it to sand all the frets at once using just the weight of the beam as pressure. Mine is about 60cm. That may not be the culprit. You can check with a fret rocker to see if there are any high/low spots. But I am guessing you've done that."
Understood - I'll make another levelling tool a bit longer.
Yes - there's no rocking.... of course that doesn't mean one side is not higher than the other....
"Curiouser and curiouser! Can you take some measurements? Capo the first fret. Hold down the Low E at about the 14th or 15th fret. In playing position, how much space is there between the string and the fret at about the 7th fret? Gibson says it should be around .010 and .012 inches (.25 and .3 mm). Next check the string action. Leaving the capo in place, how high are the E strings above the 12th fret? Gibson says about 2mm for the low E and 1.5mm for the low E."
My eyes aren't that good when it comes to the "fine graduations" though - but i'll try.
I've just changed the strings as one broke - I should have kept them as "gauges" to check (once I work out what they are in mm - I just cannot relate to fractional inches!)...... but:
capo'd at the first and fretted on the 17th frets - I'm going to guesstimate that the bottom of the string is about 0.5 mm.
Capo'd at he first fret - I'd say the gap at the 12th is about 2.5 mm for the low E and I brought it down to about 1.5 mm for the high e (no buzzing on the high e).
Capo'd at the first fret - the A string now has a little buzz to it as well.
"Gibson recommends a little more relief than Fender, but it should not be "very" high. With the capo on at the 1st fret does the low E buzz? Fingering all the way up the neck?"
I was unaware of that - are there any other differences in Gibson - as i've been using my Telecaster as a general "benchmark".... I may have more than one "inappropriate" thing!.
Does Gibson have a recommended height for the strings at the nut?
The Low E is about 2 mm above the fretboard.
But if I fret the low E on the first fret the buzz is still there (same with all the other frets - some are a little "more" than others).
To check if the frets are just higher in one side - I'll have to get a fret radius gauge. While looking - I saw this - would that be of any use? the idea would be to measure the fret heitnt at each end of the fret?
By the way - I don't have 6 saddles. It's a three barrel bridge (I went with the kit - next guitar has a Strat style hardtail - no tremolo).
And again- thank you for your help.
Very much appreciated.
I was thinking that the G measurements might be better due to scale length. The measurements are not vastly different.
Looks like the string action (set at the bridge) is a little high on the bass side, and about right on the treble side. It also has a bit more relief than Gibson recommends.
I don't think you need to worry about the nut until you get the buzz out with the capo on. Normally it should come when the relief and string height are properly adjusted.
Before adjusting the nut check these potential sources of rattle:
Nuts around the tuning pegs are not screwed down tightly. Fix: tighten down the nuts.
On the bass strings, the bronze wire wrapped around the steel core has a break in it somewhere. Fix: Change the strings.
These may seem unlikely but they have both happened to me.
If you still hear rattle tighten down everything else to make sure it's not a sympathetic vibration.
I also wondered if you can identify where the buzz is coming from on the fretboard. Normal string buzz results from the vibrating string making contact with the fret(s).
You've tested for a popped up fret. You've leveled... That makes me wonder the strings may be too close to the fretboard up near where the neck joins the body? The truss rod will bow the neck, but not evenly. It bows less where it bolts on...and even out a ways.
If that's where it is buzzing on yours you might try the taper trick in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDITCPeTOmY
People generally do this to get a faster action. I generally do this at the 12th fret. He does it at the 9th as well.
Will continue to ponder in any case...
I can't determine where the buzz is coming from. Sometines I think it's coming from the bridge.
Would a cheap bridge cause a buzz.
Do you think cheap tuners would cause a buzz?
I did notice at one stage when I strummed a single string (and not all 6 were on) that there was a lot of rattle, which turned out to be the tuners vibrating - I assumed this would end with all the strings on and all the tuners were under tension.
Both the tuners and the bridge are "from the kit".
I'll watch the video...... Interesting, it's a "second levelling process" with the last 10 or so frets "levelled" on a very slight decline....
I do wonder though - if I simply levelled the frets badly (using a shorter beam ...... or if the neck wasn't absolutely straight). Wouldn't be the first mistake I have to learn from.
I've just re-read youpost, in particular:
"I was thinking that the G measurements might be better due to scale length. The measurements are not vastly different"
Do you mean the "G string" (third string)?
capo'd at the first and fretted on the 17th frets - I'm afraid I just cannot see the bottom of the G string. I can make out that the top is under 1mm..
Capo'd at the first fret - I'd say the gap at the 12th is about 2 mm.