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Hi Simon & Greg, Color Tone is water based and therefore not compatible with turps or any other oil based spirits.
Some of my experimentation did involve blending things in with Tru Oil which I think does have mineral turps as one of its properties but the water based stuff just ended up as tiny little droplets suspended in the TO and therefore did not work.
Simon I am planning to use metho because of the veneer issue. That's AUS for metholated spirits, alcohol in the US. I don't know what the UK calls it. Aussies are accused of drinking it.
Bushman's Vodka & Orange haha!
Ha!. Meths or Methylated Spirits here.
I assumed it was the StewMac ColorTone (I've got some 'Colour Tone' stain from a UK supplier but that is certainly water-based). It's just that I'm sure I saw a StewMac video where they said to dissolve some in acetone for some spot-repair jobs, but maybe I misunderstood and they were referring to some raw powder stain or their liquid pigment for lacquer.
P.S. the UK suppler doesn't seem to be calling it 'colour tone' any more.
Hmmm, Stewmac site tends to suggest the stuff can be diluted with either water or alcohol therefore it could be worth experimenting with a drop or two in a small amount of TO to see how that turns out. If that works it would be the way to go to prevent any further dramas with the veneer top.
http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online...tructions.html
The stuff I got was already overly diluted down with water by a local distributor/supplier who was going out of business and therefore no recourse.
The UK luthier supply sites seem to be growing in scope by the day. There now seem to be a number based around Manchester supplying nitro cans and now (nitro for spray-guns) that I presume all have the same basic local supplier. But they are also adding acrylics, stains and basic dye powders. They are now also offering some wax and oil finishes (though not a very wide range as yet). I'd like to try a non-spray finish as it's a lot easier to do indoors. But after buying a lot of compressors, spray guns and ancillary tools in a short space of time, I need to let my finances recover first before starting another guitar.
I came across a reference on the web last night that Transtint in the UK is ColorTone in the US. The bottles look the same and both can be mixed with metho (I prefer bundy).
Was I like your idea of the stained Tru-Oil. It would reduce the risk of veneer bubbling that's for sure. I have sent a question to StewMac.
My only concerns would be that I would not get the chance to try and pop the grain with the wipe on/off method and second I feel the working time would be reduced significantly. I could add some turps to thin it a bit though.
Have never thinned down Tru Oil as it already seems thin enough. Do you have any of the US supplied Color Tone? If so, put a couple of drops in with a few drops of Tru Oil, give it a really good shake and see how well it blends. My theory is that the full strength stuff should mix in with TO as it can be thinned down with Metho.
Here is a testimonial from the Stewmac site where the customer mixed it in with Nitro
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and...id_Stains.html
Right-straight-up Blue Super Axe By Irish from Virginia Beach, VA
(Customer's Reviews) Tuesday, September 06, 2016
After a lengthy Super Axe build using all NOS vintage Gretsch parts, we were in a quandary over what color to lacquer...(?) After a couple of drops of Color Tone straight blue into the stringed instrument nitro-lacquer, it took abt 2 seconds to decide. We are VERY happy with the results! Definitely recommended!
That makes me think full strength is compatible with blending in Tru Oil and should also to give a 'toffee apple' look if that is what you are after.
To get the popping effect find the shade you want and put down a diluted one that is a bit lighter as subsequent ones will make the first one come out darker.
As always, best to test these ideas out on scrap timber before committing to your build project.
I thought Nitro (nitrocellulose ??) was an entirely different product to an oil based like Tru-Oil which is different again from Estapol type (polyester). I saw an article today about what all the types were and what went with what but didn't have the patience to go through it.
I will report what StewMac replies. If they do.
It is all very different stuff. What we are trying to find out through your experimenting is what other substances the concentrated ColorTone stain is capable of dissolving in. Once it's mixed with water we know it's no good trying to mix it with with any oil based materials, but we're thinking that the full-strength ColorTone might very well mix with Tru-Oil, so it's worth trying it out in a small quantity to see if it does mix in evenly (and so is very usable), or whether it separates out (when it's throw it away time).
StewMac has responded
Thank you for contacting us. You can absolutely add the ColorTone Liquid Stains to Tru-oil to color it. These stains work with virtually any finish and this should reduce the bubbling you are experiencing.
So now I have some experimentation, testing and decision making to do
Well thats interesting
That is great news and really opens up a lot of options for anyone contemplating using full strength Color Tone sourced from the US.
How many of these can I have. Here goes
AaaaaaAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH. ( Just a little one)
Nobody told me a 1500 microfibre pad is not 1500 sandpaper equiv. And I didn't stumble across the fact in all my guitar finishing research. IT IS 600 - SCRATCHY SCRATCH all over my very satisfactory Tru-Oiled mahogany base.
After 10 days of Tru-oiling I was embarking on my final few coats and went to "1500". Well I now have scratches under the last coat so off it comes tomorrow. It has been a slow process because I have been rubbing off each coat. I only found out a couple of days ago you only rub off after the grain has filled. Oh well what's another week. Thank goodness for the forum and internet.
Lucky it was on the back and not front. May not need to sand it all off, just smooth out as much as you can with finer grit paper and start getting some more layers down.
If feeling brave take & leaf out of Ponch's book and apply TO with 2000 grit in wet sanding motion as that is supposed to grain fill and would certainly help to flatten out any scratches lurking lust below the surface.
I did post on the differing grit size issue a few days ago, but it wasn't until I then when I found the grit equivalence table that I realised that the Micromesh grits were also a different standard. I'd previously only realised that the US ANSI and European grit sizes varied after reading the StewMac Guitar Finishing Step-by-Step book, otherwise I wouldn't have known any different.
http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=6500
Not deep just fine and numerous. Grain is 99% full and the light sand to fill the scratches will probably allow the last few coats to finish them as off. I am impressed with Tru-oil.
Micromesh is really designed for final polishing, so if you start on a coarse grit, you really need to continue to work your way up through the grits until you end up at 12000. that way any scratches caused by the coarser-end grits will be removed by the finer grits (or rather, replaced by finer scratches which in turn get replaced by even finer scratches etc.) .
But you also need to choose the grit size with a purpose in mind. If you still need to flatten the finish because its got bumps and dips in, then you are going to need something fairly coarse to take off enough material to do that. You only really want to do this before a) applying a colour finish and b) after the colour finish has been applied but with enough clear finish on top so that you don't sand through into the colour, and risk removing a layer or even scratching though, back to the wood. But if it's already flat, then start on a finer grit, and work up from there. If you've got the odd lump of something sticking out, then you can very lightly run some fine paper over once or twice, which should drag it off - but even then, the finish should be hard/dry enough (especially with lacquers and paints) so that the lump doesn't pull several layers of solvent-softened finish with it.
Yeah! That was the problem. The surface was perfect and this was to be the first finishing coat. But 1500 microfiber is not finishing grade.
Oh well now I know. I guess this is all to do with "first build" and "learner". Well back a couple of layers and forward again.
Finally finished Tru-Oiling the mahogany base. Pleased with the result and very happy with the finish. I have oil finished furniture in the past and Tru-Oil is the most forgiving I have used. Might be a bit expensive for a whole dining room suit though.
I learnt a lot:
1. Should have done two fills of Timbermate.
2. Finish filling the grain with Tru-Oil before wiping off future layers.
3. I used the Norton equivalent of 3M scotchbrite ( equivalent of 1000-1200 grit). Rubbed the shine off every application before the next.
4. Did two extensive sand offs with 1200 wet and dry(dry - too frightened to put water anywhere near the guitar) at about 10 and 15 applications. These were forced by one bad application that went a bit bubbly on the grain for some reason. The second was required after I use the wrong microfibre grade (see above).
5. Finished off with a pre sand of 1500 microfiber, the a 2400 before the 50% turps finish this morning.
Now back to the quilted maple top.
Attachment 15093Attachment 15094
That looks great Greg!
ooooooooo SHINY!Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLane
Looks really nice Greg. And BTW, you really need to update your signature as you've definitely started your LP-1MQ!
Oh my lord that looks unreal. Good save and recovery.
TO also comes in a bigger bottle that does work out more economical if you have several jobs to do but once opened it can go off, particularly at about the 6 months since opened point in time. I reckon the bigger one would be plenty to cover a large piece of furniture.
Been rolling along quietly and carefully. The body and neck head are now ready for the colouring stage. However there will be a delay for a week or so delivering Xmas presents between here and Geelong.
I am very impressed with the Tru-Oil finish. It is very easy and forgiving to use. Final 50% coat brings up a tremendous shine. I don't think I want to polish it as it is shiny enough but will it scratch more easily?
Attachment 15468Attachment 15469
I hope to get something between these two colour chits for the cap and headstock. I am using Colortone's Mahogany Red brightened with Cherry Red. Test have been successful so now for the real thing. I will try gavinturner's advise and wipe on and off a couple of times to try to make the quilted top pop. I dare not sand as usual(see previous).
Attachment 15470
Looking good Greg.
Reckon start with the lighter more reddish colour as you can always darken but not so easy to go the other way plus the one on the right has much more brown than red tones and not sure that is what you wanted to achieve?
Thanks Was
I am brightening a darker colour (Mahogany Red) with a lighter one (Cherry Red). And it does not take much CR to brighten the MR because there is already quite a bit of red in it. I was thinking of doing the wipe on/off coat in the MR based in the same principle that the quilt it generally popped with black or a darker colour the sanded (hopefully wiped) off. If the wipe off is not too successful and leaves to much MR there is a lot of margin to add more red to the subsequent coats.
The CT is mixed with metho and not water because of the previous veneer problems. So I don't know whether that will effect the wipe off. All part of the experience.
Metho's going to evaporate quicker than water so you could have issues and leave tide marks as a result. Have a look at Nitroburner's build diary here, where he mixed metho and turps together to thin some poly finish out. The same 50:50 mixture of metho and turps should work with your powdered dyes, and allow you to work the stain more like a water-based dye. Using slightly more turps than metho should give you a longer working time and allow you to apply with a slightly dryer rag. But as always, test on some scrap wood first.
Back looks great Greg. Very keen to see how the front comes up, love a good red.
Wow! That HS shape is wild Greg, really different. That must have been a painstaking cut and sand process to get to there?
Dude! Love that headstock shape. Your body colour and finish is looking the business too. A great build in the making!
cheers,
Gav.
Thanks for the comments. Always need a little confidence boost.
The HS was designed by an artistic wife based on a G in a logo I have been playing with. The initial rough cut was done with the fret-saw, then the final shape cut with a $20 Carbitool drum sanding kit in the drill press. Final sanding by hand was not arduous as there was no additional shaping involved. I copied the idea after someone mentioned it on this forum and it worked a treat and also using a piece of 1" dowel for final sanding.
Gav - you did not make any comments on my plans with the Colortone so I guess you did not see any forthcoming problems. Have you used Colortone with metho and if so did you have any issues with quicker drying and tide marks the Simon mentioned above.
The above photo was a bit exaggerated
Attachment 15521
Sorry Greg, I missed the CT discussion. I usually just look at the pictures :P.
Personally I would still use water rather than metho. Just don't slosh it around! It *is* up to you though and I understand your concerns. Metho will work ok, but you'll have to work fast. The discussion about tide lines could definitely be an issue with metho.
Usually I do a quick pass with clean water over the whole top first off to avoid tide lines altogether. Also, when you do your "wipe-off" you can wet your rag so that it re-hydrates the colour and draws it out more effectively. I have never tried this step with metho so who knows. It might even work better than water - only one way to find out.
If you are interested in how your top might look, check out my ES2V build which was dome in almost an identical manner. I used a drop or two of blue in the cherry to darken it rather than RM.
cheers,
Gav.
I always use metho with Colortone, I prefer it instead of water. Do some tests first to get used t it, but I tend towards more dilute and build up the colour in repeated coats rather than lots of colour and little metho in the mix.
You'll find there's a balance between how wet you can apply the stain, how often you can go back over an area, how quickly a spot becomes saturated, and too dilute a mix tending to 'wash' an already wet area rather than stain it further. Wood and grain type also have a big impact on how much colour you can get on before needing to allow it to dry. If you see the colour staying in your cloth but the metho is going onto the surface then you're at saturation, let it dry and come back with another coat.
Thanks again for the great info.
WeirdBits - I have done some testing with the mix recommended by ColorTone which is close enough to 30 to 1. I have found that to be not too rich and I needed 4 applications to get the colour I liked. I felt that gave me a bit of leeway to slowly add coats. Are you talking about a more diluted mix than that?
Also have you tried the wipe on wipe off method with metho.
I think it's time for a full dress rehearsal test. Not on the guitar of course.
Watch this space. But I have to go away for a week.
That mix sounds about right. I haven't tried the wipe on/off with metho, but I've been thinking about trying a technique of a soaking coat of straight metho to load up the surface and then quickly following with a strong stain coat to highlight the grain. Not sure if it will work as intended, but will give it a try when I get a chance.
Good luck with the test run.
Well here is the next chapter of "Learner's Corner"
First off, the testing of the wipe on/wipe off method of metho based ColourTone.
Result was it worked as expected. The metho was able to do a successful wipe off even after 24 hours. I found 15 minutes was fine and left plenty of colour in the quilt.
Next was mix my required colour. Formula was 30cc of 30:1 CT Mahogany Red and then added Cherry red 30drops +10 +10 +10.
Next a full dress rehearsal on a piece of light coloured 3-ply that had quite a bit of grain that I hoped would emulate the quilt. It did and test was successful. However I was worried that the had left the overlay of my red a bit muddy. Well sleep on it.
Next today was the big day.
First - chickened out on trying to pop the grain with MR. Test showed that it would probably pop enough with my mix.
Well after much trepidation here is the result of the first coat.
Attachment 15767
"Learner's Corner" continued. (Computer decided it had more priority that I did and did an update #$%
Well the last photo looks OK but as appears to be an issue with the quilted veneers, glue spots that I missed particularly a big one between the pup routes where the veneer joins showed up. So out with the GoofOff and sandpaper.
The resulting patches meant that I needed a second application off the red which I was expecting anyway. The quilt had popped nicely and this time went a bit darker. Next photo.
Attachment 15769
But bugger me two more glue spots appeared so out with the GoofOff and sandpaper. And hence another coat of Red to smooth it all out.
BUT THE QUILT WENT ALMOST BLACK AND THE WHOLE CAP DARKED UP MUCH MORE THAT I HAD ANTICIPATED OR WANTED.
AND GUESS WHAT THE BLOODY VENEER LIFTED IN THE SAME SPOTS AGAIN.
So I have ironed it back and it has gone flat again so I put on the first coat of TRUOIL. And hope for the best.
Well I am initially a little disappointed with the blackness of the finish but we will see what happens as I add more TO.
Basically I am very disappointed with the quilted veneer particularly the delaminating bubbles. The quilt itself is very nice but the thinness of the veneer and bubbling has restricted my the preparation i.e. sanding that was required to properly remove the excessive glue and fine sanding marks (although I did not see finer sanding marks until after applying the first stain coat. But I would have been frighted to sand them too much any way).
The colour looks much darker/muddier (like the top of the photo) than in this photo but I hope the shinny TO finish will lift it a bit.
Attachment 15770
Well off to do the next TO coat.
I
mmmm..like ruffled red silk...NOICE!
nice save Greg, that quilted top is looking very nice !