And on safety - dust mask, ear defenders and safety glasses are pretty much a necessity.
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And on safety - dust mask, ear defenders and safety glasses are pretty much a necessity.
+1 on the glasses and ear defenders, even the small routers make a hell of a racket that will bore into your skull after about 2.5 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
Yeah, I guess I took the ear/eye protection part for granted. I just do it by second nature with anything larger than a dremel these days!
My router bit from Amazon is now turning up tomorrow.
Cool [emoji1303]Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
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I've seen a couple of people use this product as an alternative to wipe on poly and get really good looking results inside of three days:
https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-...hardener-gloss
Has anybody tried anything like this?
Haven't seen it used here, but there's this informed review of the product from Amazon:
"Rustins Plastic Coating was used by Brian May of rock group Queen to finish his famous guitar, The Red Special, in 1963. Hence it is favoured by those who seek to build replicas of his guitar.
In general, RPC is simple to use but there are a few key limitations that need to be understood to avoid the finish wrinkling or rippling.
A previous version of the instruction leaflet stated "A minimum of three coats is recommended but many more can be applied. Marquetry is often given as many as nine coats." It is not known exactly how many coats Brian May applied to his guitar, but since the Red Special was finished with knife cut mahogany marquetry veneer approximately 0.6 mm thick, it is likely that he followed this advice and applied many coats.
The most key piece of information is that you have to either get three coats on within two hours (to achieve the window for a chemical bond) or wait several days for the previous coating(s) to fully harden before the window for a mechanical bond will be achieved.
This is because the surface hardens relatively quickly but under layer remains soft and can be reactivated by the next coat leading to a wrinkled or pitted finish.
The recommended time that should be left for the coat to harden completely varies from 3 to 6 days because this is dependent on ambient temperature. The warmer the temperature, the sooner the coat will harden. The instruction leaflet recommends temperatures above 18 degrees Celsius.
Initial rubbing down should be done using 600 to 1000 grit wet and dry and/or 0000 grade wire wool to apply a key for the next coat. Only progress to a finer grit when you are ready to apply the final coat.
Try to avoid using RPC on a product that has been assembled using PVA or water based glue, as the coating can sometimes react with the PVA glue and cause problems later on. The best glue to use is Cascamite or other resin based glue.
RPC is extremely sensitive to contaminants such as cleaning chemicals, wax polishes, food stuffs, oils etc. If these for any reason enter the timber the strong solvents in the PC will dissolve them out and will probably not affect the first coat but the second."
The review has some nice pics:
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/custom...SIN=B002HMQH38
So a three-day finish is possible, but unlikely. You do need to leave it to harden properly otherwise you'll leave fingermarks etc. And the curing time is temperature dependent, so a warm day and it will be quick. a mild or cold day and a lot slower. And it has a very strong resin smell, so best not done in the house.
Thanks Simon - yeah I'd seen that review. There's a chap I've been talking to on FB who has used it after wrestling with wipe on for a number of months. Of course, a FB pic is nothing compared to a close inspection but it looks great and reckons three days from application to polish. He's in the UK so enduring the same temps as the rest of us. I'll question him more about his process.
I have three routers and a rotary cutting tool and I am a bit afraid of all of them. I learned the hard way the wisdom of Simon's advice about a base for the trim router. Light routers are also squirly and it does not take much for them to jump. I like the big 3 hp plunge router the best because the heft and 1/2" bits seem to make it smoothest and easier to control. But anything you hold in your hands that has a half inch bit turning at 23,000 RPM with that kind of power is intrinsically scary. I thought the least scary was the 1.75 HP router mounted in a table...until I piece of maple tear out hit me in the chest hard enough to raise a welt... They are also my loudest tools. 1+ on the safety gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
I haven't worked on this project for good while as I've been putting the finishing touches to the PB kit and enjoying playing it!
The next stage is to deepen the neck pickup cavity to accommodate the stacked pickup.
I was worried about the stability of the router on the body as there's not a lot of surface to keep the router upright. So I ordered some acrylic and made a base. I didn't have a good way to make a hole large enough for the collet assembly pass through. I removed the base from the router and stuck to the acrylic in an attempt to use it as template. It meant routing without the base attached to the router which felt a bit sketchy. It didn't really work as I didn't end up with a perfectly round hole. But it's both big enough and not too big - so all good.
Attachment 40568
I did a quick practice with the new base on some scrap and it seemed to work okay so I went at it on the body.
It it seemed to work out pretty well. Did three passes and took about 4mm of total depth out of the cavity. It looks really clean and the now the pickup sits just proud of the scratch plate.
Attachment 40569 Attachment 40570
The next problem was the hole for the wire was too high in the cavity and was preventing the pickup from sitting flat. So I widened the hole and that seemed to help enough to the get the pickup to sit low enough.
There's some minor damage to the finish - why I didn't think to put some masking tape down I don't know #dumbarse - but should be easy enough to repair.
Now I've done my first clean routing job, my shed is covered in sawdust and I'm starting to feel closer to being a proper guitar builder. :D
Attachment 40571
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[emoji3]Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
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You could probably cut that acrylic base down a bit, or make another smaller one for general purpose use. It doesn't need to be too large to keep the router level, and at that size you're going to come across many situations where it's going to catch on something else and stop you from fully routing out whatever needs routing.
Yeah, it's a tad excessive...Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
It's been warm in the UK for a couple of days now and I've converted the shed from winter mode into summer mode. Part of the process involved clearing out some of the junk that I keep having to move to get the things I need - so there's a little more space to move.
Anyway... I've put the first coat of wipe on poly onto this body. The things I'm doing differently this time:
- Only apply finish when the temperature is above 15C
- Store the poly in a glass jam jar
- Keep the jar sealed and above 15C
I might also move the body inside over night.
So, one coat down... I'm not sure I'll go to 50 coats, like I did with the last build - perhaps 25?
Attachment 40731 Attachment 40732
Looks like you're off to a good start! Your colour transition looks good too.
Before you know it you'll be uploading another demo! (which was well done also)
You've done a great job on the colour!
Thanks guys [emoji846]
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~40 coats later and I have this:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d30f241de4.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...34c9f434b9.jpg
I think the poly has gone on okay… I dry sanded at P800 every ten coats or so with the last coat applied last Thursday. I did a final sand and left it hanging in the shed..
It’s been four days now and the smell has almost gone. My plan is leave it two weeks minimum.
The outside temps have been good in the UK ~25C during the day for the last week or so. They are due to go up a little before dropping later in the week to about 20C.
Should I move it to my conservatory which will peak at about 30C or leave it in the shed. I’m worried that higher temps might soften the poly?
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I'd leave it where it is. It's warm enough. A bit of air movement helps more than a few more degrees. Too big a temperature difference can let the wood swell and contract a lot, which can't be good for the finish. 30°+, more if in direct sunlight, and then down to maybe 14°-15°C at night is quite a swing.
Got a bit too hot for good nitro spraying here by lunchtime (patio faces SW, so with warm bricks and paving is 2-3°C above shady garden temperature, so the shady wall thermometer was indicating about 28°C) and started to get a few small bubbles happening in places, so stopped for the day and will sand back tomorrow in that area and start off sooner in the day.
That's looking great Groovy. Sounds like it's been a smoother ride than the first one!
Now, I'm just concurring with Simon here on temps etc. IME 20-25° C is the perfect range for application (as most manufacturers put on their labels). Humidity is also a huge factor. 50% is perfect, and I never spray over 75%.
I know I'm talking about application there, but I personally apply the same principles to curing/drying (for the most part). Warmer is not necessarily better here. You don't want to "bake" poly or lacquer like enamels, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Thanks both,
Yeah it was a lot less stressy than the previous build (which is still soft) mainly because I learned a lot from the previous one. I didn't sand until I had a good amount of gloop on and was ultra careful of the edges. This body has much softer corners than the previous one so it's lot easier to apply the poly and keep it on there.
I could bring it inside the house where the temps are much more consistent but I don't have any convenient hanging places. I'm not sure a curtain rail will be up to it.
In the meantime I have something planned for the headstock to keep me busy for the next couple of weeks - more later!
I bought a clothes hanging frame from Amazon for indoor guitar-hanging duties for about £30. I've also used it outside when its not too warm and there's a bit of breeze )but not too much).
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...924/vdgnyf.jpg
It also gets use for hanging duvets on when recording and it can also be used for clothes drying inside on rainy days during the winter months when I'm not guitar building.
Oh nice - I might have enough bits in the shed to make something like that :)
While the wait continues for the body to dry, I thought I’d try my hand at some inlay.
I made a jewellers bench thing and bought some abalone off cuts and a jewellers saw. Then I went at it cutting out some letters. There was a bit of a learning curve (keep the saw straight and use light pressure) but I think it turned out okay?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e2837f1d9f.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...99778f6253.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...75fcc4b29e.jpg
I’m not sure about the underline. It looks good but it’s too short and might be difficult to inlay…
Anyway, the next job is to work out how to inlay. I’m going to practice a load for before going at the headstock!
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Bold step for your second build. Good on ya!
I look forward to seeing your progress here as I've never attempted an inlay (and tbh, likely never will).
Awesome. I'm pretty keen to try that myself one day.
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Yeah it should be fun - and I need something slow and time consuming to keep me occupied while I wait for the body. I've been watching a lot of YT vids so what can do wrong? :D
I like your style, Groovyman. I’m personally a fan of inlay. Have you considered making the underline thicker? Or curved or tapered? (Just my 2 cents worth). Looks great nonetheless. Good luck with it.
For me the underline would work a tad better if it was a bit longer, so that it ran from the left edge of the right leg of the A to the right edge of the right leg of the H
Looks good so far, but I would recommend trying to finesse the edges of the inlay so they are a bit smoother. If you are anything like me, if you inlay it as is, it will look good to you for a few minutes, and then you'll notice the slight wiggles and wish you'd taken more time.
Definitely use what you have to practice, but I would suggest doing a few test inlay pieces until you feel you've cracked it, before attempting it on the guitar.
Yeah, that’s plan. However none of the off cuts I got have a length long enough to do the whole line. I’m wondering if it would work if I used a number of pieces for the line. Might look okay?Quote:
Originally Posted by blinddrew
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You’re right, zoomed up on a iPad screen you can clearly see the need for more finessing. I cleaned them up this evening but I can get them better I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
I also spent some time making a routing base for the Dremel… not quite finished but nearly there - hopefully it’s going to work!
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I've got the StewMac one you're welcome to borrow.
Thanks Simon - I’ll see how my home made one goes. If it’s a total fail I’ll take you up on that offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Barden
In the meantime we should arrange a meet up?
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Well, it's been five or six weeks since I finished applying poly to body and it's still not passing the finger nail test.
A week or so ago I decided to wet sand. It went okay but I went through a couple of times and had to touch up with stain and extra poly. The fixes look okay - but once you point them out you can't un-see them. It's more of a problem with the stain not blending properly rather than the poly.
Anyway - now's it at 2000 all over and feels super smooth - but alas, still soft.
Attachment 41036 Attachment 41037
I'm not going to polish until I've finished messing about the inlay on the headstock. I've had a bit of practice now but I'm not ready to have a go at the headstock. So the body has plenty of hanging time.
I can see a few rattle cans of nitro in my future.
Well that's a bummer, as well as troubling. I've not experienced poly not curing especially after that amount of time. I'm not sure I would have wet sanded if the finish was still soft though.Quote:
Well, it's been five or six weeks since I finished applying poly to body and it's still not passing the finger nail test.
A week or so ago I decided to wet sand. It went okay but I went through a couple of times and had to touch up with stain and extra poly. The fixes look okay - but once you point them out you can't un-see them. It's more of a problem with the stain not blending properly rather than the poly.
Anyway - now's it at 2000 all over and feels super smooth - but alas, still soft.
One thing I might have tried is dry sanding with medium grade sandpaper and letting it sit a while longer (even just a few days). I have experienced this with acrylic lacquer that was taking an inordinate amount of time to set. So out of frustration I sanded it a bit, and a few days later, it came good. I thought it may have been coincidence or my imagination until Simon B mentioned it another thread months later.
My theory (I think Simon mentioned this also) is that the last coat cured quicker than the coats underneath and created a "skin" that prevented the solvent gases escaping, thus keeping the sub-layers soft. After sanding/abrading the skin the solvent gassed off and everything hardened up.
As I said, I've only experienced this with lacquer with which the solvents are much hotter than turps, but maybe the same effect can occur. Dunno...
Well that’s the thing. It’s hard to the touch. If you sand it, white powder comes off. It’s not like it’s smearing about when sanded.
A few days after the last coat, I did do light dry sand with 800 before leaving it. It was around a month before I started wet sanding.
When I say it’s soft, if I push my finger nail into it, it leaves an indent. (I’m doing these tests where the neck plate is going to be). I sanded it as I remember someone (Simon?) saying that it would increase the surface area and I thought that I might also remove the layers that are preventing the lower layers from hardening. But as I’m burning through in places it seems it’s not even that thick.
The same happened with my PB kit finish. It’s got a load of indents in it from “normal use”. I’m wondering if it’s either the poly / white spirit combo not working well together. Or I’m putting it on too thickly and not letting it dry enough before the next coat…. There’s too many variables to be able to viably experiment with.
Anyway - I’m going to leave it while I finish working on the inlay and then try to make a call on what to do next.
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How should one assess how hard a finish is? I understood the “finger nail” test is the way to go? Should pushing with a finger nail leave any mark at all?
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Well it's been a while and in that time I've given up on the inlay - After many hours and attempts I wasn't able to cut an accurate enough inlay in my test pieces to warrant attempting on the guitar. I think the main problem is that my design was too intricate for my skill level. I'm still going to keep practicing and hopefully an inlay will feature in a future build.
In the meantime I've applied an waterslide decal to the headstock and put around ten coats of TO on the neck. The headstock face is getting many more coats to try to bury the decal and get some kind of gloss.
After my last update I emailed Rustins, the manufacturer of the poly, to try and get some insight about what might be causing the softness in the finish. They suggested that I've put too much on for it to dry hard. But I'm not convinced that I'd be able to sand and polish to a gloss if it were to be any thinner. They also suggested that Rustin's Plastic Coating is a preferable product to their vanilla PU varnish for this type of application.
So I polished the body anyway despite it's softness. And of course managed to burn through again!... So now I'm trying to fix that.