Joe G’s PSH-1 First Build Diary

All info useful here, especially your lovely little tools. Nice work.

And a record like this is useful as you can look back if you discover a problem later to see if it had existed all along, or something that happened during the build.

You'll probably have to ream out the control holes again once the finish is on.

It's a good idea to stuff old newspaper or similar into the body when applying finish to stop the finish getting on the rear of the interior (note that digital newspapers don't work as well as the older paper ones do). Or try and stick masking tape over the inside of the holes. Something I'm sure you would have done, but I thought I'd mention it, just in case and also for the benefit of other readers.

I think this was the first thing I did. It was pretty chewed up and was hard to sand evenly (with the tool I was using at least.) But it’s miles better than it was and it made me feel better about the guitar. I then proceeded to make more sanding dowels and clean up all the drill holes, the corners of the pickup cavities, etc.

These are inexpensive kits which usually means (for manufacturing in general) the Factory tooling (bits) is not changed frequently, and also less concern about “Feed and Speed” when machining which leaves a lot of tear out and rough holes.

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Nice work Joe, the cabinet making background definitely shows in the attention to detail!.

Attachment 35904I, uh, sanded the top :) very lightly with 150 to see if I could hide the machining marks. It looks much better. I need to quit sanding the veneer while I’m ahead. I scraped the glue spots but didn’t get much out and didn’t want to take off too much material. Then I read the label for Goo Gone and it says not to use on raw wood. I can’t help but to wonder if some of the lightness we see after treating glue spots is also from the chemical, or from moving glue around but not actually removing it?

I read you can wet sand the glue spots while staining to get the spots to accept stain. I also read you can add solvent to the stain.

I don’t mean to go against the recommendations of forum members but I think I want to try a light first stain coat to see if there are glue spots, and try the wet sanding method. Because deep down I find sanding the veneer a bit exhilarating. Just kidding. Well not really. But really I don’t want to move glue around and make it worse.

Oh the places I scraped, where the worst glue is, I didn’t final sand which is why it looks “different.” Just in case I do some other work, I’ll wait till the end to final sand it.
Anyway, here it lies in its current state. I’m off to bed!

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You have probably already read this, but using the Goof off with a firm fine brush instead of sanding with it. I find a firm toothbrush works well here. This "should" break up the glue into more manageable pieces to get it out of the wood. Once it starts to ball up, you can wipe with a rag to really get rid of it for good. To give you an idea of unknown glue spots give it a wipe down with gum turps or similar and you will see in good light the inconsistency where the glue spots are.

Goo Off and Goof Off are very different products. I'd use straight acetone (with no additives) if you can't get Goof Off.

I need to figure out the bridge thing. I want to start working on the neck joint, but that requires knowing the neck angle which means I need to know the bridge height.

In order to use the ebony tailpiece, I need to figure out a bracket that will properly support it, and not flex or bend from string tension. Any movement in the bracket means tuning issues. Most guitars with this style tailpiece use a system that lets the tailpiece adjust to string tension: either secured with a wire, or mounted on a hinge. My favorite guitar apparently uses a solid metal bracket. I’ve been looking for good pics for years and never found one, finally I did. I also noticed that the ‘copies’ of that guitar are now switching to solid brackets.

If the bracket is too thin, or if the angle is wrong, it will bend under string tension. It looks like the Languedoc guitar (the $15000 guitar I love) uses a 90 degree, and I guess it’s just thick enough steel that it doesn’t move.

So back to the neck angle: I need to have a secure tailpiece bracket, need to know bridge height, and need to make sure there’s enough string break angle over the bridge to the tailpiece. As it is right now, I’d need to add a bunch more angle to the neck to make the bridge pieces I have work. So what I can do to minimize that is reduce the height of the rosewood bridge base.

A good method to do this is lay sandpaper on the guitar, and rub the bridge until it takes the shape of the guitar top. But, my guitar is unfinished and has a very thin veneer. I’m afraid if I do that, I’ll rub in the grain a little (burnish?) which would affect how it absorbs stain. So what I’m thinking is to just uniformly remove material from the bridge to get approximate height, then build and finish the guitar, then come back and finish the bridge.

Here are some examples of guitar tailpieces. You’ll see the wire mount, the hinge mount, and finally the bracket mount.
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After writing all that and posting pics, I thought I’d take a pic of my guitar. It turns out the break angle looks pretty good, and lowering the bridge might actually make it too shallow of an angle. That said, this is the lower of 2 bridges I have and it’s not on studs yet. But honestly I think it looks pretty good.

What do you think?

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It certainly looks good enough for now. Really no point taking the bridge height down at the moment (if at all). It can easily wait until final setup.

I’m still torn between a standard combination (wraparound) bridge and the tailpiece. I ordered a wraparound and was thinking this isn’t really the right guitar for a tailpiece.

Then I found this, which only needs minor modification to work:
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It’s a bracket for mounting hydraulic “springs” - I think this one is for the escape hatch on a boat or something; it’s from the marine supply store. It’s literally the exact size, shape, and one of 2 colors I wanted. I’ll drill out the ball and put the strap button there, and drill a couple holes for screws.

The top of the guitar is very thick: the topside is carved but the bottom side is basically flat. There is some material removed from the underside around the control routing, otherwise the top is pretty thick. Here’s a pic looking through the jack hole at the underside of the top (I swear these pics are right side up on my phone!)
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This means the guitar probably won’t have much of the resonance one would associate with a nice hollow body. The arch top style bridge with the tailpiece is all about transferring vibration to the top for resonance. So in this case it would be purely aesthetic.

But, I have an idea to do something to the guitar I bet you’ve never seen done before :) I need to wait for the tool library to open on Friday so I’ll leave you with the suspense.

Anyway the rest of the bridge hardware won’t be here until at least Saturday so I can’t set the neck angle yet. But I will pick up some fishing line and work on neck alignment.

I'd certainly have to drill out that built-in strap button so I could fit my Schaller straplocks, but that looks like a good solution for you.

There are/were really bad gouges taken out of the side of my fretboard. I’ve cleaned a lot of it up but I’ll need to pull the frets to put a comfortable edge back on it. Is that something that can be done after the guitar is built and finished? Or is it really better to do before the neck is on, or the guitar is finished? If I have to do it now it’s going to set back progress and I might lose motivation.

Edit: oh maybe I can do that while finish is drying on the body?

Given that it's possible to take a complete guitar to a luthier or tech and have frets replaced I would say it's possible to do it after the build is completed. As to the best time to pull the frets, I can't say as it's a subjective call on something I have no direct experience with.

Good point.

There’s no ‘finish’ on the side of the fretboard, correct? Other than maybe some oil?

On the rosewood parts there would only be whatever you treat the fretboard with. I wouldn't let the neck finish on there. On my tele I masked along the join between the neck and fretboard. I think that's the standard approach.

This is the mess in the neck:
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On a happier note I cleaned up the lines around the rest of the neck. It’s not really stuff that’s easily photographed. I held the neck under a light and moved it all around, looking at shadows, lines, curves, etc and sanded out anything that I could to smooth things out. To my eye it looks a lot better.

Here’s one example: where the neck transitions to the heel is a bit abrupt and there’s a definite line or shadow where that starts. This is about half way through sanding it out.

Somewhere there is a line between attention to detail and insanity. Others can see it. I can’t.

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It's fairly standard for clear coats to go on the side of rosewood/ebony fretboards but not the top. Commercially, it's easier and quicker (i.e. less cost) to just mask the top of the fretboard when spraying clear coats than the top and sides, where far more precision is needed.

If you've got a paint finish on the body, then having clear coats on the side of the board can prevent the feeling of a paint ridge along the edge, and the finish can fill in the gaps around the fret ends, giving a smoother feel in the hand. With a stained finish, a paint ridge isn't an issue, so it's then personal preference.

I like to put finish in the sides as I feel it provides some extra protection for the edge of the board, plus I like the look.

And now that you mention that Simon, I went and checked my two other rosewood equipped guitars. Despite having owned one of these guitars for over 30 years, I was still quite surprised to see that the clear finish does indeed cover the side of the rosewood. Boy do I feel foolish now, having so carefully masked the sides of my fretboard before clear coating the neck. I am sure I can make it work by carefully sanding the edge of the finish smooth.

I think a lot is down to ease of production and also how smooth the fret ends are. Some manufacturers nip the ends of the fret tangs off and fill in the fret slots so they are smooth. Those that don't have a bit more reason to put clear on the fretboard edges to fill in the gaps at the fret ends.

Definitely no fill on the fret slot ends. No sharp edges of frets that catch, but not 100% smooth. I am now thinking that I could sand the current edge smooth (sanding back onto the neck somewhat to get some mechanical adhesion), tape the fretboard top and then spray the sides.

Or maybe, as Joe mentions above, I could leave it as is for now to avoid losing momentum on the build. Once I have a playable guitar I could always pop the neck off and spray the edges then.

You could even TruOil over the neck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

You could even TruOil over the neck.

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Really? Over the acrylic lacquer I currently have? Interesting. I would have to avoid the headstock though, as I switched away from a satin poly to reduce the risk of turning my bluey decal green over time.

Probably best to give a light sand first, to allow it to key in. But I've put it over satin poly on a Fender neck to give it a bit more colour and some shine.

Cool, that's something I will keep in mind if I revisit this after completing the build.

And now I will stop hijacking Joe's thread (although the topic is related) :)

After looking more closely at the frets, they are probably the best thing on the guitar - all level, even, constant height, etc. I can radius the fretboard carefully with the edge of a folded piece of sandpaper at the fret corners and it comes out pretty decent.

The one thing that bugs me is the divot at the first fret. I don't want to remove that much material to blend it as it will make the fretboard noticeably thinner. So I'm thinking about building up the edge of the fretboard. Since it's the edge of the board I think wood filler is a bad choice for durability. Epoxy mixed with sawdust seems like a possibility. I could even get it close, then use CA while sanding the actual fretboard to blend it. If I finish the fretboard with something somewhat shiny I think it might blend OK.

What do you guys think? Have you ever built up a fretboard? Do you think fretboard oils would work over the patch?

This is a pic of the back of the first fret, and a pic of a similar gouge elsewhere on the fret for reference. I wouldn't build up the maple neck, just the rosewood and blend it back. It wouldn't be perfect but it would give me the back the width of the top of the fretboard.

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Well it’s been a little nuts here the past couple months. My piano needed repair and the tech did a lousy job, so I ended up having to buy parts and fix it myself. Then my Jeep needed a bunch of work, and 3 of the ‘better quality’ parts I ordered ended up being bad so I had to re-do some work there, too. On top of my job getting quite busy.... Things seem to be quieting down so I expect to get back to the guitar this week.

I went to check the neck/pocket for alignment, and check the scale length. The nut is in the wrong place - I looked up a fret spacing chart and all the frets are properly placed relative to each other for 629mm scale length (for my international friends ;) ) but the first fret to the nut is 312mm, short by about 2.5mm. I'll either have to cut the nut back about half its thickness, or move the nut closer to the tuning pegs and add a spacer. (Note that the bridge is locked in place, and also irrelevant to the spacing issue; I can space the neck 12-3/8" from the bridge, but the nut spacing will be closer to 24-5/8")

Have any of you had to deal with this before? Any suggestions on what looks the best?

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You should be measuring from the inside of the nut to the high E saddle on the bridge. Measuring to the 12th isn't really helpful, the overall measurement will ensure it's correct.

So looking for 628.5mm on that measurement. If it's not right you need to move the neck in or out to correct it, it's not a case of jamming the neck into the pocket as far as it will go. The placement is determined by the overall scale length.

^^^ this exactly what Sonic said. On my prs kit, I had a sizable gap between the end of the neck and the front of the pickup route. Once I measured it bang on, allowing for some adjustment in the saddles, I made a block the correct size so I could put it back exactly in the same spot. I also ended up gluing the block in with the neck to expand the contact area for enhanced resonance etc.

Here is a post from Marcel's diary with some photos and reasoning behind this decision;

https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post175919

I just measured my PRS1-TS (built 2018) and it's 312.5 to the centre of the 12th fret.
My bridge is set as per what Sonic & BD have said, and this guitar intonates as near to perfect as you can get.

I understand what you guys are saying and I appreciate the replies. Something still doesn’t make sense to me though. It might be that in practice, a few mm misplaced nut doesn’t make that big of a difference, since it gets split over 2 scale lengths and then adjust out as best as possible. I don’t have the experience to make that kind of call. But in theory, my nut is in the wrong place:

From the fretboard edge of the nut, it should be 1/2 of 24.75” or 1/2 of 628.65 mm to the center of the 12th fret which is 314.3 mm. Mine is 312mm. I understand I can move the neck such that the overall scale length is 628.5mm. If I do that, I’d need to adjust the saddles in a bit to get proper intonation. The result would be scale length technically a little short of 628.5 mm. But if I do that, it seems like every other note will technically be out of tune.

There are fret spacing tools/calculators. Here’s a pic of one from Stewmac. If I were building your own guitar and cutting frets, this would be my guide. This says from the fretboard edge to the center of the 1st fret should be 35.28 mm. My neck measures short of 34 mm. However all the other center-to-center fret spacings are pretty much spot on. Since every fret is in the right place relative to each other, but the nut is not in the right place relative to the 1st fret, it seems like gluing my neck based on the position of the first fret isn’t the best idea.

Does that make sense? Maybe I’m just over thinking a small difference? If your 12th fret doesn’t measure 614.25, but your guitar intonates well, how do other notes measure? For example, open G and 12th fret G are in tune, and open D and 12th fret D are in tune, then playing G on D string should also be in tune.
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I feel you are overthinking it. There are a lot of known issues with these kits and someone would have found this issue by now and you’d have more replies with fixes. If you go from the inside of the nut to the saddle on the high e (with it adjusted most of the way forward) you’ll be fine. All of the thicker strings will need adjustment back from the stated scale length, so ensure that’s available for the other strings.

I'd run with what you have and take the scale length as 624mm.

If you put that in the StuMac calculator, then you get this:

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If you look at your photo with the 12th fret and ruler, then the 10th fret position looks to match up with the calculated 273.8mm (though you could really do with a better ruler with individual, and thinner lined, mm markings, for this type of work.

You can measure a few other frets to confirm, but if they match, then I'd run with 624mm as the scale length and position the neck accordingly.

Thanks guys. Yeah I do overthink things quite a bit :)

If I compare the difference between 628.5 and 624 mm scale length fret spacing, the difference between each fret is like 1% (0.3mm at the first fret) which seems like it would be within reasonable tolerance. So maybe the nut is a little off but in the grand scheme of things its a very small amount.

That ruler is just for photos since it’s easy to see. I use much more accurate equipment (and also measure things in inches!) for things like this.

I’ll get going on fixing the neck to pocket fitting.

Some ‘after’ pics of the neck. I had to remove a TON (tonne?) of material from the bottom of the neck block, then level it, then square up the slot in the guitar and add shims. I’m really pleased with how it came out. It’s very satisfying.

Before:
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After:
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I forgot the tool pic :). Mostly I just used a piece of window glass, double sided tape and sandpaper. Chalk to mark high spots. It’s hard to make a convex surface flat so I started removing material from the middle with the narrow sand paper side. Once it was slightly concave I used the wide side to make it flat. I don’t know how I knew that but it worked.

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Very nice work indeed!

Ton and tonne are almost exactly the same weight and both terms get used in the UK, though I'd imagine that tonne will be more prevalent amongst younger people and become more so.

Thanks Simon! :D

Ok, so I want to drill the holes for the pickup rings. But it would be nice if the neck was already glued on so nothing moves and I can align the pickup screws with the strings, and the edge of the pickup ring with the neck, etc. But I thought most people finish the guitar before gluing on the neck? Do you guys drill the pickup mount holes after finishing?