Greg's First Build - LP-1MQ #151

Unpacked my birthday surprise and found this much to my delight

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I am very happy with finish as there are no blemishes and little glue. As it is my first build I am thinking of going stock standard as in the box. I guess I can upgrade the electronics later if necessary. Still to decide on colour but Dingotone options look good.

I started my mock build and step 1 was to put the neck in the body.

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WHOOPS!! ALREADY??

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The fret board is not sitting on the body. It is up 4 mm. Does that mean enough would has not been taken of the neck or out of the neck slot. Or does a scratch pad go between. There i3 no scratch pad in the box.

Dimensions in next post

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Hi Greg nice looking kit. The neck looks ok, the fingerboard will sit about 4mm above the body. There should be a break angle on the neck about 3 or 4 degrees to compensate for the height of the tune o matic bridge.
If you want a pickguard email Adam will send you one if it didn't come with the kit. Personally I wouldn't want to hide that quilted maple !

Thanks for your quick response.

What do you thinks of this photo

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Hi Greg, yes the break angle looks fine. The pickup ring has to be rotated 180 degrees and the thicker surround is for the bridge pup

Woops

I am comparing my photo to Andy40's prizing winning photos from May guitar of the month. The white edgestrips on the fretboard and body are actually touching. Mine has a 4mm gap. The top of his fret board is almost the same as the top of the pickup.

Greg if you are worried about the height of the neck do a mock build and check the height of both E strings

OK Thanks Wokkaboy. I'll get on with it.

Looks like mine. I sanded the heel down so the neck fit. I did it SLOWLY THOUGH. On the base of the heel with a block. Sits much better now. Have a lookat my link in the sig. I had same issues.

I have just done a rough measurement of gaps between the strings and pickups
The neck pickup will be 5.5 mm to the strings. The bridge pickup will be 2mm to the strings.

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Greg, the important part is the string action height. if you have a ruler long enough run it from the nut to the bridge saddle, otherwise put both E strings on. The pups can be raised to suit the string height

Hi Greg,

My LP-1SS was a set neck. You are right it does not sit 4mm above the body. I haven't done a bolt on neck LP style as yet so i can't comment as to whether your neck is sitting high or not.

I believe Dedman has just finished one of these kits, maybe shoot him a PM

both my LP and LP Jnr sit about the thickness of the fret board AGAIN higher than the body
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Thanks all you has just confirmed that I was worrying over nothing.

In the last 10 minutes I came to the conclusion that my supposed problem had something to do with the fact that I have a bolt on neck and most of the others on the site are glue on. Then I found you responses.

I had been studying Dedman's build diary as I saw he had a bolt on but none of the photos showed the fretboard sitting up. Thanks for the latest photo Dedman.

What I think the bolt-on is, is a cross between a Gibson archtop and the LP. I was just beginning to confirm that on the Gibson web site. A Gibson ES175 looks similar at the neck connection. Including the connecting slot.

Anyway no excuses now I must get on with it, after I get rid of the grandchild at the end of the week. I am sure I will be in touch

Andy 40, I hope you don't mind but I think I will be going Karijini Red, yours looks so great. I hope it will brighten up my playing. Can you tell me if you highlighted the grain in yours. I don't think the quilted grain lends itself to highlighting as much.

glad you could see what was going on, bit hard to take close ups with flash on my crappy camera :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GregLane

Andy 40, I hope you don't mind but I think I will be going Karijini Red, yours looks so great. I hope it will brighten up my playing. Can you tell me if you highlighted the grain in yours. I don't think the quilted grain lends itself to highlighting as much.

---

Don't mind at all Greg, quite flattered actually. I used ebony timbermate to highlight the grain. Let me know if you can't find my build diary and i'll link it.

I started by sanding the sides back and neck until it was silky smooth, but dont touch the cap, its too thin. just put the ebony timbermate over the cap when you are ready and carefully sand the timbermate off with say 240 until you hit the cap then 320 so you don't sand through the cap. If I'm using dingotone, I only sand the sides to 400 so the DT will take better on the front and back and neck.

Attachment 14159
Thats the ebony timbermate half sanded back

Looks like quite a watery consistency used there Andy as when spread on too thick it requires more sanding to remove and thus risk damage to precious veneer caps.

Yep thats right Waz, good point. I also did the cap last and quite separate to the entire rest of the body and neck as the technique is different and I wanted to concentrate more

What does one do with lifted veneer?

I wiped the veneer with a damp rag to look for glue spots and look at the quilted grain and noticed the veneer lifted. See photos.

What to do?

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Hi Greg,

This happened to Neverwas when he put his veneer down and DB gave him some tips...heres the thread. http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ghlight=flames

Well after 24 hours the bubbles shrunk back almost flat but there was a little bit of drumming underneath each area. So after much discussion with DB and Adam it was decided to try a hot iron on the spots to try and stick them. With much trepidation, as the plastic edging was near the spots, I applied some heat and seemed get a bit of improvement. So stuff it - turned the heat up on the iron, got it nice and hot (like sticking veneer edging strips) and bingo it has worked and stayed there for 24 hours.

So now it's time to get back onto the project.

Good save Greg! Its really interesting to see what little issues pop up in the course of peoples builds and how they get around them.

great work Greg, hope it stays that way

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Finally got started on my build today by doing the mock build. Everything was in the box and the suggested measurements all OK.

I haven't been doing nothing. I have been searching the web for weeks looking for advice on filling and colouring fragile quilted maple veneer. I have totally lost confidence in pressing the friendship by trying to do anything too fancy bearing in mind the apparent thin veneer and trying to ensure that it does not lift again. I thought at one stage I would kill two birds with one stone by filling the grain and highlight it with dark coloured Timbermate. But too much sanding methinks.

So I hope the dungeon attached to the naughty room has plenty of Bundy because I think I am going to be banished.

So here goes. I am going to:
1. Chicken out on grain filling the quilted veneer despite advice from Dingobass (Is that a Bundy?). I will take wazkelly's advice to Josh and try to wipe off as much as I can of the ColorTone (one Bundy) first two coats. If it does not work I don't think any damage will be done. I will be diluting the colour with methylated spirits, keeping away from water based. I am aiming at a dark red.

2. Finish is Tru-Oil. (another Bundy).

3. I am not going to stain the base or neck - just Tru-Oil. I will fill with mahogany Timbermate. ( Is that a Bundy?)

BUT I DO HAVE ONE ISSUE

On the photo below you will see a fine crack in the veneer circled. It is about 40mm long running close to a knot in the grain. It does not appear to be moving or shrinking. I expect that I can fill it with a little bit of maple (light) Timbermate.

Should it be glued? I would appreciate any advice.
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Hi Greg, pretty hard to see how wide the crack is, even after zooming in to 300%. Presume it is no bigger than width of a fine human hair?

Suggested solution - touching it up before staining will be like having a permanent glue spot where stain may not penetrate, therefore I would leave it alone and proceed with stain coats. As you have stated you will be using TO for the top coat finish it can act as a grain filler if you apply the initial couple of coats quite thick. I have done all of my 4 builds with 1st & 2nd coats of TO brushed on as the 1st tends to get soaked up plenty in the thirsty timber and the 2nd gives you the base foundation to start ragging on the following fine layered coats.

Downside - base stain coats may accentuate the fine crack but hey, timber is a natural product and has grain shooting off in all different directions so hopefully this might not be so noticeable once all coloured up.

Experimental idea - get a hold of some 'natural' coloured timber mate and add some of the stain colour to a small slurry test batch and smear that into another scrap bit of timber with a crack in it. If it doesn't have a crack just create one or an indentation. Let it dry for at least 24 hours before lightly sanding back then apply your stains as you plan to do on the guitar and see what happens. If the repaired crack is not noticeable, way to go. If it is noticeable, how noticeable and is it worth the hassle?

Hope some of these crazy ideas give you some inspiration to help solve your problem.

if it is really fine crack your clear cots will fill it

Thanks for the quick replies. I like your idea waskelly and will give it a try. The crack is a bit wider than a hair but it looks like timber so I am not that worried about filling it somehow.
I am sure it will look ok. You have already given me more confidence that the TO will fill the grain.

Sorry about the photo, I was too lazy to go and unpack the kit again for another photo.

All good Greg, hope it works out well for you.

How many ways to skin/kill a cat? A: Less then the ways to finish a guitar.

After much research on the forum and the web I finally decided how I would go about the LP-1MQ. Bearing in mind the issues with the bubbling veneer and all the great advice I have received, this is the plan.

The mahogany base as shown in the photos is filled with one coat (two may have been better) mahogany Timbermate and then TO. No colour.
The first two coats were rubbed in until starting to go sticky and then wiped off with the application pad. This left them a bit thicker. They were sanded with 400 grit between coats. The next 5 coats have been applied and wiped off with kitchen paper leaving a very fine film. The coats dry in 3 hours so I can do couple a day. Each coat is rubbed with 1200 Norton pad before the next one and wiped with a tack cloth. The grain is filling nicely with the TO. This is the stage I am at and the photos. 15 coats to go.

The bottom end of the base had a lot of machine marks that were not moving with manual sanding so I used my electric sander shown in the photo. Worked perfectly and all marks gone. I mention it because I have rarely seen comment about using electric sanders and wonder if I have broken a tabu.

I am going to finish the base and then do the top and neck at the same time.

The plan for the top is a dark wine red colortone dye. I have to invent/mix the colour yet (does anyone have any CT recipes?). No filling or sanding of the fragile veneer. I will try the wipe on/wipe off the dye method on the first two coats to try and pop the grain a bit more. I am confident now that the TO will fill the grain in the final 20 coats.

The neck I am not going to color just finish with TO. Well... I am a bit open to suggestion here as I could fill it with mahogany TM or even a light mahogany stain to match the body to give it a bit of colour. It wouldn't take much TM as there is little open grain in the maple neck. There is some nice colouring in the maple which is why I am tending to just TO. I will stain the topside of the headstock the same at the guitar top.

Well that's where I am. Just reporting in.
P.S. How do you know if you've caught the GAS. I have found myself looking at other PB kits.
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If it's a tru oil finish you want then I think the plan seems just right, the results speak for themselves, looks great

Hi Greg, that natural finish on the Mahogany looks great.

For a Dark Wine Red colour were you chasing something like this?

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This was achieved with mixing some Color Tone Cherry Red with a deep red fountain pen ink. There are plenty of fountain pen inks to be found on eBay if you go down that path as the supplier I used seems to have gone out of business.

Thanks waz and Stan for you comments.

waz your red looks close to my mental image. I would be happy with it. I have found the ink is still available on the web. I have a supply of colortone which I will play with but know I have a backup with the ink.

Hey Stan - Carn the Cats. Next year.

Cheers Greg. The Color Tone Cherry Red I used was watered down rubbish from the DIY Guitars closing down sale and on its own looked way too dull and washed out. Hopefully you have ended up with the full strength stuff.

Yep! All the way from the USA.
Do you have any idea what the dilution ratio would be for a rich red?
The bottle says it's 2 fl.oz will make is 2 quarts as the default mix. That is one in 32 (1/32) with my maths.
My plan would to mix it a bit richer and slowly dilute it till I find a good colour. Not a quart though.hihi

Waz I just saw you were talking about cherry red. There is a good picture of mahogany red on the DIY web site. It is closer to what I am aiming at so will play with the mix. Difficult to find any useful ratios on the web.

http://www.diyguitars.com.au/wp-cont...rmfinished.jpg

I wouldn't go by the colour of the watered-down dye as indicating the final colour on the guitar. Remember that you can simply add more of the colour on to the guitar by staining again after each previous application has dried. It's far easier to get the colour level you want by doing it in stages, rather than all in one go.

Also note that US and Imperial Fluid oz. measurements are different, so whilst the 1:32 ratio you worked out is correct (as the bottle will be talking about US measurement values), if you use a jug marked only in imperial fluid oz. measurements for the water (e.g. add 2 imperial pints to the 2 oz bottle contents), you'll get the wrong mix ratio. You'll be fine if you use simply measure out a 1:32 ratio using the same measurement units each time.

Thanks Simon
Does that mean you think that the 1/32 mix with multiple coats would be the way to go.
Earlier in my diary I mentioned that I am going to try to pop the grain a bit extra by putting on a coat and wiping off after half an hour. First two coats.
Of course this is all theory for me at the moment being my first build. But chipping away slowly and will do plenty of testing.

Hi Greg, just a few tips to keep things really simple.

The color tone swatch colours are not a good true representation as I also ordered their mahogany and it turned out more dark brown than red and ended up gifting that along with some unused DT to Andy for his SGD612.

Other than the EX-1 all my other builds have had a fair amount of experimentation involved and best to have a decent sized piece of scrap timber to do some test samples on.

How I did this was to purchase a few packets of the cheapest thin paint brushes, the type that kids use and come in a pack of about 10 or 12 at $2 shops for about that or less per pack. Also bought several syringes from Chemist Warehouse plus a few eye droppers, and at Woolworths they have these neat small round shaped containers that come 8 in a pack for $2.50 per pack or 3 for $6.00 which is better value and you end up with 24 of them. Here is a shot to help you find them in the store...
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Next is to label spots on the timber for the different samples - I started off with one drop of full strength and then moved on to samples with a drop of water added and some of the ratios were 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:5, 2:1, 2:3, 2:5 and so on, and if blending different colours as I did on the Red Bass just repeat the process and allow things to dry. A few hours later, or maybe next day, closely inspect the samples in a good light, not direct sunlight as that can wash things out too much, to see which ones look ok and which are crap. On the good ones add one coat of finish as they can sometimes add their own hue to end result and leave to dry. Next day you should be able to zero in on at least one or two that you like the look of.

Once you have ratios figured out use the syringes to measure quantities to be placed in the small containers. For the Orange EX-5 I think it was 5:1 Cooloongatta Gold to Outback Sunset. Don't forget the minimum 30 seconds shaking the brew to blend properly before application.

The build thread for the red bass has the ratios used on the first coat and as the timber was extremely thirsty next day things looked a bit more crimson than what I hoped and for the 2nd stain coat dialled in just a little bit more of the darker fountain pen ink and thankfully nailed it.

A few months ago Dedman PM'd me about Blackstone as he had ordered some ink and it was not forthcoming and ended up cancelling via PayPal and got a refund so if planning to use them do so at your own peril. Would suggest considering the Pelikan Ruby as per these links and there are plenty others on eBay too, just most are more bland ink pad shades.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_n...&ul_noapp=true
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Seitz-Kre...QAAOSwgmJXxsSV
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Seitz-Kre...QAAOSwMgdXxrDq

Finally, don't be afraid to dilute it down a bit with some water as that will help make things spread a bit further, particularly for the 1st coat, however with the issues you have had with veneer bubbling you may need to wring out as much moisture in the rag before wiping on and doing it this way will require a bit more working it into the grain but worth it in the end.

Hopes this makes sense as it is not that hard. You will probably feel like a primary school kid back in an art class doing all the experimentation but totally worth the effort to dial in the exact colour your are chasing.

Edit: for the wipe on/wipe off method that was done on my blue Tele and suggest having a look at that thread for more details. Worked brilliantly and from memory it was a slightly lighter 1st coat brew and 2nd was a bit darker and was done just after the red one which was an ash body with timber mate to accentuate the grain. The Tele was maple top and this was the only safe method I could think of top pop the grain without sanding.

Listen to Waz.

I was wondering, as the stain seems to be soluble in most substances, and you have that veneer issue, whether you could try dissolving some in turpentine or white spirit? If it worked, that would stop the wood grain lifting (as it would tend to with water), and I'd have thought would have less effect on the veneer glue used (especially if it's PVA-based).

Any thoughts, anybody?

Thanks for all that info Was
I think you have just tied up all the loose ends. I did bring home a big bag of goodies (containers syringes etc) from the $2 shop last week.
The TO is still coming on nicely, the headstock is cut so I guess it's time for the next big plunge.