French Polishing?

[rokitrik]

Any experts on FP out there?

https://www.guitarsint.com/article/I...ssical_Guitars

Is Fresh Polishing recommended for all kinds of woods or are there restrictions? I'm considering using the method to finish my PBG TL-1 guitar kit with Basswood body, Maple Neck (C Profile) and Maple Fretboard.

Will FP process also work for finishing the Maple Neck and Fretboard? Can I change color for the Fretboard?

I really want to do the finish by hand and avoid spray. French Polishing really seems the way to go. I can't order PBG finish products since I'm in the USA. Is Wudtone a better option?

Appreciate your input,
Rick

[McCreed]

Hey Rick.
First, I should say I have not done a french polish. However I am a big fan of shellac but mostly as a sealer when finishing.
I'm of the opinion that shellac as a stand alone finish for guitars would be too brittle (particularly solid bodies). Which is truly a shame because it's so easy to work with. Here's a direct quote from the article you linked:
"The only drawback to the French polished guitars is the delicate nature of the finish compared to the hard, synthetic finishes provided on the factory-made instruments."

If you're trying avoid spraying (or unable to do so) there are a number of products than can applied by hand that will yield an excellent, durable finish. Tru Oil; Polyurethane, Tung Oil just to name a few. (all 3 of those are basically a polymerised varnish)
You can do multiple coats of shellac and then top coat it with poly to create a protective shell over the shellac. The shellac can provide a lovely amber tint to the timber and the clear poly remains clear (for the most part).

Beware that Basswood has a fairly open pore grain and will likely require grain filling. This can be done using shellac and pumice doing a slurry method prior to the french polishing; painting; clear coating etc or you can use a number of other grain filling products/techniques. Also worth noting that shellac as a sealer or otherwise, is very compatible with what ever goes over it. This is one reason I love it so much.

There may be others here that disagree with me or maybe have had success using shellac on its own, but everything I've read and inquired about it, has left me with my earlier stated opinion.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Mick

[Marcel]

I did a Shellac finish using the FP method on my ES-1TL build, and on the back of the body of the TLA-12 (see link below)

Whole guitar including neck for the ES-1TL.
It feels totally different in the hands when compared to other finishes. Particularly after you apply some furniture style wood care products to it.

I think it is worth a try on at least one build.

[rokitrik]

Hey Rick.
First, I should say I have not done a french polish. However I am a big fan of shellac but mostly as a sealer when finishing.
I'm of the opinion that shellac as a stand alone finish for guitars would be too brittle (particularly solid bodies). Which is truly a shame because it's so easy to work with. Here's a direct quote from the article you linked:
"The only drawback to the French polished guitars is the delicate nature of the finish compared to the hard, synthetic finishes provided on the factory-made instruments."

Mick,
So glad to read your post here and your guidance in my wiring thread as well. Excellent point on the drawback to FP. Doesn't sound like the right approach for my first build. Maybe FP is an option when I work up to a ES-5V or similar later. I'm researching different finishes and I'm liking more what I'm reading on shellac process, especially as you describe here.

If you're trying avoid spraying (or unable to do so) there are a number of products than can applied by hand that will yield an excellent, durable finish. Tru Oil; Polyurethane, Tung Oil just to name a few. (all 3 of those are basically a polymerised varnish)
You can do multiple coats of shellac and then top coat it with poly to create a protective shell over the shellac. The shellac can provide a lovely amber tint to the timber and the clear poly remains clear (for the most part).

Beware that Basswood has a fairly open pore grain and will likely require grain filling. This can be done using shellac and pumice doing a slurry method prior to the french polishing; painting; clear coating etc or you can use a number of other grain filling products/techniques. Also worth noting that shellac as a sealer or otherwise, is very compatible with what ever goes over it. This is one reason I love it so much.

I wanted to try a hand finish before I take on spray. I'm also unsure of compressor/sprayer requirements (other than rattle-can) and my own skills. I read up on Tru-Oil and Miniwax wipe-on applications and folks have stated that oil methods do not preserve the wood, have no UV protection and the finish yellows over time. I like the idea of poly on top of shellac. Will a poly top coat remedy that problem with it's "protective shell?"

Please help me define the process in basic steps, following sanding/masking/prep, as I list below. Some of the steps I list may not be applicable and I could use some course correction!

1. in this first step applying shellac/pumice slurry to fill open pores, how many coats are generally required and what in the way of drying time in-between?

2. is sanding required following the slurry application(s)?

3. what are my options for adding color or is this process for natural finish only? You mention that shellac provides an "amber tint." Is that all I can do for color? It actually sounds pretty slick. Do you expect the Basswood to look nice or does that wood type lend itself better to a different finish treatment in your opinion? Like rattle-can, for instance, to keep it simple for a newbie like me.

4. continue shellac coats. I understand that multiple coats are required but for Basswood, how many coats would you estimate? Drying time between coats?

5. poly top coat. Assume I will use a poly wipe-on product. Your guess on how many coats? Wipe-on, wipe-off?

6. polishing. Done with a polishing compound or simply buffing out the poly?

I found the FP process guidance in the link I provided. Do you know of other effective step-guidance for the shellac/pumice/shellac/poly topcoat process in the PBG forum or elsewhere that I can study further?

There may be others here that disagree with me or maybe have had success using shellac on its own, but everything I've read and inquired about it, has left me with my earlier stated opinion.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Mick

This really helps a lot Mick because this is all new ground for me. I hope I make sense in my questions and I look forward to your response. Thanks a million.

Rick

[rokitrik]

I did a Shellac finish using the FP method on my ES-1TL build, and on the back of the body of the TLA-12 (see link below)

Whole guitar including neck for the ES-1TL.
It feels totally different in the hands when compared to other finishes. Particularly after you apply some furniture style wood care products to it.

I think it is worth a try on at least one build.

Great input Marcel, thanks. As you'll read in my post to McCreed, I am very interested in shellac with poly top coat. As you state, I could finish body and neck with the same process. What do you recommend for finishing the Maple fretboard? I'm thinking the body, neck and head stock would have the amber tint provided by shellac that Mick describes.

The "furniture style wood care products" you mention -- are those a wax of sort? Do these fall in line with the poly topcoat approach? What products do you use?

Cheers,
Rick

[McCreed]

Hi Rick. Just saw your reply post. I'll try and get a point by point reply to you tomorrow.
I'm just too buggered tonight.

Cheers

[rokitrik]

Hi Rick. Just saw your reply post. I'll try and get a point by point reply to you tomorrow.
I'm just too buggered tonight.

Cheers

I understand. Thanks brother!

[McCreed]

Ok, I'll do my best here...

1. in this first step applying shellac/pumice slurry to fill open pores, how many coats are generally required and what in the way of drying time in-between?

How many coats? Not to be a smart-arse, but until it's done! Each piece of timber is unique, so it depends on the depth of the grain etc. You might get by with 3 runs at it, or could take 6. You just keep checking until you're satisfied.
A 1lb cut of shellac dries pretty quickly. A little longer with the slurry. Of course, temp & humidity effect this like any other finishing process, but under good conditions you should be able to do at least 2-3 applications a day.

2. is sanding required following the slurry application(s)?

Yes. light sanding, enough to smooth things out so you can see the progress of the filling.

3. what are my options for adding color or is this process for natural finish only? You mention that shellac provides an "amber tint.

Do you expect the Basswood to look nice or does that wood type lend itself better to a different finish treatment in your opinion? "

Shellac can be tinted, but I've never done it. I like the "natural" colour of shellac and it will darken with the more coats that are applied, but it is subtle and builds slowly. If tinting, use analine or alcohol based dyes, not water based.

Basswood isn't known for it's great grain patterning, but it can still look nice with a trans finish IMO. Sometimes it depends on how well the blocks of wood are matched (presuming it's a multi-piece body) or how many blocks are used in the composition.
One way to get an idea of what a grain will look like under a clear finish, is to wipe it down with a rag wetted with methylated spirits. It evaporates fairly quickly but you get a glimpse of what it might do, and it doesn't raise the grain too badly.

4. continue shellac coats. I understand that multiple coats are required but for Basswood, how many coats would you estimate? Drying time between coats?

Refer to no. 1, but also using shellac only as a sealer I get as many as 4 coats a day on with good environmental conditions.

5. poly top coat. Assume I will use a poly wipe-on product. Your guess on how many coats? Wipe-on, wipe-off?

Yes, in your circumstance where you're avoiding any spraying a wipe-on. I mix my own wipe-on poly with a 1:1 ratio of brush-on polyurethane and mineral turps. To buy wipe-on poly off the shelf, cost about 3x as much the regular stuff and all it is, is regular poly that's been thinned (with turps!). Plus, mixing your own allows for playing with the ratio a little if needs be. However I pretty much stick to the 1:1 (50/50) mix.
My process is: wipe on > dry > smooth with synthetic "steel wool" > repeat. I like to apply at least 12 coats but it's entirely up to you. You can only do 4 if you like, but I prefer a thicker finished layer. (FWIW, using Tru Oil, I've done as many as 24 coats)

6. polishing. Done with a polishing compound or simply buffing out the poly?

I like to do a progressive wet sand for my final step. However I let the topcoat (ANY topcoat - poly, lacquer, tru oil etc) cure for a minimum of 7 days before this process. As a general rule I wait 2 weeks though. If there is any tack to the finish when I handle it, I leave it.

My wet sanding procedure is generally through these grades: 600 > 1200 > 2400 > 3600 > 4000 > 6000 > then Micro-Gloss 1 micron polish. The 2400 grit and up are part of a 3M Micro-Mesh kit, you typically won't find them in a hardware store or auto supply store. And this is only what I do. It's what works for me. 6000 is pretty extreme, but again, it's what i do.

There... hope that helps some more. I need more coffee now!

Cheers

[rokitrik]

Ok, I'll do my best here...
...
There... hope that helps some more. I need more coffee now!

Frickin' awesome reply, Mick! This really helps a lot with my overall research on finishing options. I may even take on spray. I wonder, would a hybrid approach work? For example, work the shellac/pumice/shellac process and then SPRAY the poly topcoat? Or is that mixing it up too much?

Cheers,
Rick

[McCreed]

Frickin' awesome reply, Mick! This really helps a lot with my overall research on finishing options. I may even take on spray. I wonder, would a hybrid approach work? For example, work the shellac/pumice/shellac process and then SPRAY the poly topcoat? Or is that mixing it up too much?

Cheers,
Rick

Spray or wipe-on poly will accomplish the same thing. Wipe-on just takes more coats to build up (which is not necessarily a bad thing IMO). Spraying (rattle can or gun) can be easy to go too heavy and get runs or prolonged curing times, which is a whole other set of issues.
A bit of practice on scrap wood is the best way to get the feel for it and observe how the material is affected by technique. ie: too close, too far, to heavy, too light etc.

As I have mentioned before, I primarily use shellac as a sealer because it is so compatible with other finish materials.
Grain filling is mostly done by hand anyway, whether you do shellac & pumice or a purposed filler. It's not the application method that's so critical (spray, wipe) it's what's being applied over what.