Dark red with accented grain

[vanOverload]

Hello everybody,

As my baritone tele project is on the way and I am not able to use Dingotone I wanted to double check my plan on the finish. I've seen some post on this but there seem to be a lot of different ways and problems people had to manage so maybe you can help me avoid some.

I am going for a pretty dark red and want the grain of the flame maple veneer to stand out. It's the TL-12F body. Some examples:

This is a sketch created by using the halo guitars online configurator, thus pretty close to my actual setup. Except I'll use a FCH tele humbucker bridge and maybe hide another active pickup behind the pickguard (as its output is pretty high) to keep the esquire look.

My ideas is to use water based stain made by Clou. A layer of black, sand it back with 500grid or extra fine steelwool, another layer of thinner black to darken the following red and 2-3 layers of dark red. Only black stain on sides and back.
Fine sanding the raised grain and finish with tru-oil.
Is this a good way or should I go for dye or something?

It's a little hard to compare all the techniques and products because of all the translation and product comparing going on to find stuff here in Germany, so I appreciate your help. Maybe someone from europe can recommend good products available here.

Thanks

[Simon Barden]

I've achieved a very similar finish to your sketch on my ES-1 kit body. I used a black water-based stain on the maple veneer, sanded it back very lightly then used a cherry-red water based stain on it. A Tru-Oil finish over that had issues so that got removed and the body was re-stained with a spirit based stain. I then used clear nitro over the top.

I wouldn't use too much black, as it does tone the red down, and a second application of even dilute black could make things too dark, especially if you are using a dark red on top. I'd put a few applications of the red stain on and see what it looks like. It will look slightly darker with the clear coat on, so use some turpentine, white spirit or methylated spirit to dampen the finish to see what it will look like with some clear coats on. If necessary, you can mix the stains to add a darkened red on top. I'd avoid any more straight black or it could get very dark very quickly.

Tru-Oil will add yellow to the finish, which will make the red a bit more orange-looking. Tru-Oil also goes more yellow over time, so the finish you start out with won't be quite the one you end up with. You might want to try out the stain and Tru-Oil on some scraps of similar colour wood first to get the right shade of dark red once the Tru-Oil is applied.

Being in the UK I get my stains from here (just FYI). https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...d-stains.html/

People have used a lot of different dyes and stains and they've all seemed to work pretty well, so don't be afraid to use your Clou product, it is a proper wood stain. Don't forget to get some disposable latex or vinyl gloves to keep your hands from being stained. It takes a couple of weeks for it to wear off!

[vanOverload]

Thanks Simon, great input.
I am on my hometown for the weekend where my "workshop" is. So I will try the Clou stuff on some scrap wood. Do you have any experience what to you use if you don't have maple/basswood on hand? I am not sure if I will be able to get some wasteable pieces locally.

I wanted to use Tru-oil as I will need it for the neck and fretboard anyway and I read that most lacquer would decrease the tone.
On my bass that I kinda recessed I used spray clear coat but only 3-4 thin layers basically for protection. There's no need for it to be extra shiny, I'd even dig a more satin (open pore or whatever you call it) finish where some of the character of the wood is remaining. But it should still protect the guitar and keep the finish from decoloring.

Do you think problems with water based stain and tru-oil might be avoided if the body dries a little longer before applying the tru-oil? Or should I use nitro to beginn with?

[Simon Barden]

As long as the finish is thin, it won't affect the tone. Your Tru-Oil will end up as thick as a thin coat of nitro or acrylic or poly.

There was a time when many guitars were coated in a thick layer of Polyester. I know, I had one; a late 70s Ibanez ST55 where the finish was nearly 2mm thick! Took all the resonance out of the body. I think the finish references still refer back to those times. But keep the finish coats to a minimum (remember that you will still need to sand this flat, then polish and still have enough clearcoat left to protect the surface) and you won't notice anything.

You can just add 2-3 coats of Tru-Oil if you really want to keep it as thin as possible. But the wood will simply soak that up and there won't be any real protective layer and its easy to then wear through to the wood very quickly, damaging the finish. You can then apply a few more coats of Tru-Oil to cover things over again, but you'll be doing that fairly often. And there really is no sonic benefit. Maybe OK for a maple neck which is pretty hard and some people like the near-wood feel under their hands. But for a nice body finish, you really need many layers of Tru-Oil (they are very thin).

I'd just use a light wood like pine if you can't get any maple or maple veneer. Pine won't take up the black stain like flame maple will (very few woods do) but will still give you a good idea of the final colour.

You can use a satin clear spray if you want, or you can use less coats of Tru-Oil. The maple veneer will be smooth, so you won't have any deep grain showing. To get rid of dust in the spray and small hard lumps of Tru-Oil you'll probably still need to sand it back flat then use some fine grit sandpaper paper (P2000 or P2500) and a bit of polishing for a semi-gloss look.

[ILRGuitars]

I agree with Simon. He does great work. But 500grit paper may be too fine to use. I use 240 - 320 grit. This will sand the grain flat but not polish it too much. This allows the following stain coats to soak into the wood.

[vanOverload]

This ultra thick 70s paint always comes to my mind when someone talks about lacquer and tone. But the bass I mentioned was painted like that. Sanding it off took some time.
Anyway guys I'll clear coat the body then instead of tru-oil. I really don't want to see it scratched up or yellow just because I wanted to use tru-oil.

I guess nitro is the best option then.

[Simon Barden]

I find it easiest to use and get a good finish with, especially the clear lacquer. The downside with nitro is that the solvents are bad for you, so you need to spray in a well ventilated area and use a vapour mask. You also need to spray when its warm (applies to any type of spray paint). Below 14°C you risk trapping moisture in the lacquer (because the lacquer cools as it is sprayed) which gives a misty white finish. Sometimes this disappears, sometimes it's permanent (which means sanding that layer back). But 19°C to 25°C is the best temperature range.

If you need to sand back a run or blob of lacquer. then let it dry thoroughly. the surface can feel dry, but a thick blob can still have wet paint underneath. The solvent in the paint softens the layers beneath, so sanding when it's not fully dry can cause all the soft paint/lacquer underneath to be pulled out and you then are left with a pit that needs to be filled. So it's often best to wait until you've sprayed all of that coat type, then leave it for several days before sanding away any high areas.

[vanOverload]

You are right about that. From my experience spray paint has few strong risks you have to know but if you do it's a nice tool. I wish someone would have told me those hints a few years ago when I first started using spray paint.

Edit: I saw that one of your hardware stores offers like raw door knob and stuff made from maple. I guess I will use that as a color test and post some results later on.

[wazkelly]

Flame maple veneers on most kits is very thin and it doesn't take much to accidentally sand through and ruin the top.

Popping the grain can be done in a couple of ways. Yes, you can use black ink but you also risk that becoming too dark and also darkening the shade of red applied on top. If doing black I would suggest using a good quality fountain pen ink and wipe on liberally then use another cloth to wipe off the excess. Leave it to dry overnight and then use a damp rag (dipped in water) wiped all over the surface to dilute and soak up black already applied, and need to be careful about being too moist as that could soften the glue holding the veneer to the top. You may need to do this a few times then leave to dry for a day or two. This may also cause some of the wood fibres to stand up and a very light 240 grit sanding is all that it should require.

Another method, which is my preference, is to use differing strengths of the stain so that flame is popped in darker shades of the stain colour, being red in this instance. You would apply in same manner as described above but starting with the darkest shade of stain that would then be wiped off next day. Doing this a few times deepens the colour a lot and subsequent lighter stain coats helps to create the lighter flame effect, similar to sanding off the darker colour.

Here is a shot of my last build that was done this way where I had to sand off the flame maple veneer. It was also finished with about 20 coats of Tru Oil and hope it provides you another angle to consider.

There are better shots but this one shows up dark and lighter shades of the grain. There is a link to this build in my signature if you want to check out more.

J Bass is an Ash body where I used ebony Timber Mate as a filler to pop the grain. Easy to do when there is not a thin veneer as it requires a lot of robust sanding of the excess filler which would also strip off any veneer.

Cheers, Waz

[vanOverload]

Thanks for your long answer, Waz.
Why would you choose ink instead of stain?
I thought about the varying stain intesity technique but as I want a darker red I think starting with black (maybe thinned with water) would be the way to go.
I got some stain today, which I applied on a piece of beech and will see first results tommorow.

Update: Just a quick look at the black stain I tried. The black really is pretty dark (I used their white before and it takes a lot more layers) but the side I tried thinned with water could be useful. Maybe I will try another piece with red and black mixed for a deep red first layer that would not requier (as much) sanding