Greg's Second Build - STA-1 Ash #234

[McCreed]

Should I stain and eventually true-oil the fretboard slot/socket? I have been looking at lots of pictures and there does not seem to be a rule. The STA-a is screw on fretboard. I know to leave the slot clean on a glue on.

First, nice colour & grain on that body! Glad you managed to get the glue spot out too.

re: neck pocket - If I'm staining/dyeing a screw-fixed (bolt-on) body I'll get at least a little bit on the inside edges of the neck pocket, but have done the entire pocket as well. It doesn't hurt anything IMO.

When I'm spraying, I also get some in there (both base & clear coat). The mounting stick covers most of the bottom of the pocket, but the sides are still slightly exposed. When it comes time to fit the neck, I can always sand the finish coats back if it's a bit too snug.

With hand-applied finish like Tru Oil, you can do the same. I like having the finish coat sort of roll over the edge from the top as I think it makes for a stronger contiguous bond that way and less chance of chipping or flaking. There's absolutely no science to that, just theory and speculation on my part.

Also, when finishing a (bolt-on) neck, I finish the whole thing heel and all. Again, that's what I do and I'm sure others may disagree. But if you've ever removed the neck from a factory-made guitar, chances are it had a finished heel.

[GregLane]

Hi McCreed

Thanks for your reply.
I did do one layer of stain in the pocket on the first pass for the same reason you suggested. I was worried that I might be able to see an unfinished bit through any small gaps. I did totally finish the heel on my LP which has a crew in fretboard.

I guess the thinking could be that finish might absorb some vibration connections between the Fretboard and body. No one could tell from my playing anyway. hihi

Greg

[Simon Barden]

Stain is fine, though most people (and guitar companies) will mask up the pocket from the start and so only have about 1mm of stain and finish round the edges. You do need the finish to roll over the edges or as McCreed says, you are likely to catch the edge of the finish (if it's only right up to the edge rather than over it) and chip it.

If you do finish the inside of the pocket, then the more finish you put on, the smaller the pocket dimension becomes. You'll be finishing the neck itself, so the heel will also be getting slightly bigger. If the neck pocket was a tight fit before finishing, then it's easy to overdo it and have the neck then too big to fit in the pocket. It's happened to builders here before.

Whilst it's easy to sand the finish on the heel of the neck flat, it's a lot harder to do a similar thing within the confines on the neck pocket. So you may then leave what was a flat surface as bumpy, possibly alter the neck angle and make poor neck to pocket contact.

On the other hand, if the pocket fit is slightly loose, then finishing inside the pocket can provide a tighter fit. But a very loose fit will be better solved by strips of veneer rather than a big build-up of finish. So, just be aware of the options and do what's best for what you've got.

[McCreed]

If the neck pocket was a tight fit before finishing, then it's easy to overdo it and have the neck then too big to fit in the pocket.

I am of the opinion that if a neck heel needs to be pushed hard into the pocket, it's too tight. If the fit is that tight, it will cause other problems later on, both during the build and after it's finished. The neck heel should almost literally "drop in" to the pocket with little to no resistance.
If I have an unfinished body that has a tight pocket, I sand it until I get the fit "right" before I do anything. Especially before applying any finish. I want to create enough space to accommodate that and more.

If it's too tight, it can make proper neck/string alignment hard to achieve AND if it's too tight the risk of cracking the finish around the pocket (especially the little bit nearest the lower cut-away on a strat) is increased by neck movement either by adjustment or natural environmental conditions (shrinking/expanding with humidity levels).

The myth which has been perpetuated about a tighter neck pocket creating better "sonic transference" and "more sustain" is rubbish.
I will clarify that I am ONLY talking about bolt-on necks here.

I'm not saying that the best possible mating of the surfaces of each component shouldn't be considered, but it is not the be all and end all to a great sounding electric guitar. How many great sounding vintage strats & teles have had an old business card jammed under the heel as a shim?

Whilst it's easy to sand the finish on the heel of the neck flat, it's a lot harder to do a similar thing within the confines on the neck pocket.

I don't find this to be difficult at all. I have small hardwood blocks that are cut true and square just for this purpose.
By using the sides of the pocket as a guide, I can sand the bottom perfectly perpendicular to the side, and vice versa sanding the sides using the bottom to maintain a right angle to the side. I take my time and check regularly with a machinist square.

[GregLane]

Thanks Simon. Good to hear from you again.

Hey McCreed I just noticed why you were pleased with my red colour. I just noticed your icon and the red Tele. What dye and colour is that. Go the Reds. hihi

Greg

PS I have decided to take the compromise decision and just do the edges.
G

[McCreed]

Thanks Greg.
That tele was done with a combination or ColorTone Cherry Red and U-Beaut Red (both water-based dyes).
It was a PBG TLA-1 kit with Ash body.

The reason I used two different dyes was the ColorTone I bought was just too small an amount and when diluted (to recommended ratio) it was just too pale (more pink than red). I used the remainder of the CT neat and it wasn't enough to cover the whole thing so I switched to the U-Beaut and the end result is what you see now.

Here's a better pic of that guitar: (glamour shot )

[wazkelly]

Call for quick help.

Should I stain and eventually true-oil the fretboard slot/socket? I have been looking at lots of pictures and there does not seem to be a rule. The STA-a is screw on fretboard. I know to leave the slot clean on a glue on.

Greg

Hi Greg, not sure what you mean but if on the body, no, you do not put any finish inside where the neck joins body. As for neck heel, Yes, it does need to be finished and if using Tru Oil it shouldn't build up much of a thickness. I have done 5 bolt-on necks this way using TO and all worked out fine.

Cheers, Waz

[GregLane]

Run out of Tru Oil after 38 coats and awaiting new supply.




It is 3 weeks since my last report and I have been tru-oiling and sanding for 38 coats and reckon I will need maybe another 10.

I sanded the guitar down to 340 grit and then did two wet wipes with meth to lift the grain (I don't like water with wood). I noticed the black v grain lifted surprisingly high so sanded smooth again. Then another wet coat of metho and up the black grain came again but nowhere near as high so sanded smooth again.

Then I applied three coats of black Timbermate, sanding with 340 between coats.

Then the first coat of ColorTone Mahogany Red mixed in metho 15:1. I noticed the black grain liftted a little but expected that it could be filled with the planned 30 coats of Tru-oil (needed 30 on the LP). Two more coats of stain and grain looked great but the large v shaped grains lifted further. But too late now. Expected that they would fill with the tru-oil

Away I went with the Tru-0il. Three good coats and the first sand off with a dry Scothbrite Grey. The ScotchBrite is 600-800 grit but I have found it much gentler on the finish than 1200 wet and dry. From the third coat it did a light sand with Scotchbrite between each coat. After about each 10 coats I found I needed the 1200 wet with turps for an extra flat smooth off.

The smaller grain was not filling as quickly as I expected even after the Timbermate. I think maybe next time I will sand the Timbermate with 600 to leave it smoother. Others might like to comment on this idea. I have noticed there is a bit of a different view on the forum about much bite you need to leave for the finish.

The valleys between the raised big v gain were not filling. So after 18 coats I decided to just pour the Tru-Oil into the valleys to fill them. Had to do that three times but now I had an almost glass finish. By the time I got to 30 coats all the valleys were nicely filled

The small grain had almost filled after the 38 coats.

I don’t have 38 layers of tru-oil on the high spots, only in the grain because I have had to sand down quite heavily to get closer to the low grain.

My next issue is that during my finishing process I put the scratch plate on for a look. I thought ‘I can’t cover all that beautiful grain with a big Tele scratchplate’ so I have decided to cut off the lower horn and shape the plate with a curve from near the switch to the lower screw near the neck.

I really don’t think I need the router for such a short cut. I was thinking of shaping the plate with drum sander on the drill press and then filing and sanding the bevel. I would appreciate any advice on this idea. I will do some testing shortly.

[McCreed]

Greg, that's looking outstanding!
I like the simplicity of your G logo too. It's understated yet elegant. Is it engraved, then filled with something?

re: Sanding the Timbermate with 600, I see where your thinking is with the finer grain, but not sure it would achieve what you trying to. I guess it's worth a try. I think 400 is the lightest I've ever gone.

However, how much did you thin the the timber mate when you applied it?
My feeling is that too "dry" a mix will make it harder to fill the finer bits of grain, and too wet it won't have the proper adhesive properties and lift out easily with sanding.

Another observation I've made is sometimes it takes more than 3 applications. I know a glass-smooth natural finish looks great, but grain-filling is my least favourite part of the process.

re: your pickguard, I did a similar, but more conservative thing on mine (see earlier photo).

For doing custom pickguard shapes or mods, I rough it out with a medium hobby saw (saw blade fits in my Excel hobby knife handle) fine tune it with my drum sander (in drill press) and do my bevelling by scraping with a Stanley Knife blade. I do a combination of holding the blade in hand as well as in my DIY binding scraper tool.
Last I clean up any tool marks with a flat jeweller's file and 1200 sandpaper. I've even gone so far as to polish the bevel with Micro-Gloss polish.

It's time consuming, but way cheaper than ordering a custom guard, and I find it quite therapeutic...
and you get exactly what you want!

[GregLane]

Hi McCreed

Thanks for the info on the pickguard cutting. I will be taking it slow an easy.

The guitar is actually redder and blacker than the photo. The flash turned it brown/orange. Try again when finished.

The G for Grandpa, Grumpy , Guitar , etc hihi
It is nothing so clever as a filled engraving. It is just a laser printed transfer well covered with Tru-Oil.

I agree the Tru-Oil may have been a bit dry. I purchased a large bottle with the kit and took over a year to start using it. In fact I added a little bit of turps to what I had left for the last 10 or so coats and it was better to apply. It will be interesting to see how the new bottle feels when it arrives on Thursday.

I did have about 1/3 of a bottle left from the LP which was couple of years old. It was quite good still. Lived upside down in the refrigerator for two years.

I finish with two coats of 50/50 Tru-Oil and turps. Really shines. I have never polished the LP and it is still great.