How to work with mid range as a guitarist

[Andy123]

I have a question about mid range.

Popular late 80s/early 90s heavy guitar tones were "scooped", as in, mid range was turned down considerably if not altogether cut. Yet if any amateur guitarist attempts this sound, their guitar signal is lost (practically absent) in the mix.

The explanation seems to be that guitars are very mid-rangey instruments which can't compete with the bottom and top end produced by the bass and the drummer's cymbals. So how the Dickens did the likes of Van Halen and Metallica get away with it?

Also, I've been looking at different tone types produced by different amp types. Apparently British amps (Marshall, Vox etc) have a pronounced upper mid voice. American amps (Fender, Mesa etc) have more of a scooped sound.

Fender's reputation is for having incredibly loud amps that retain a perfect clean sound almost all the way up. How did they become the amp of choice for Motown acts etc with all that brass to compete with if they had a scooped sound? How come the guitars aren't completely lost in the mix?

How is it that a scooped sound works for some people and not others? What am I missing?

[dave.king1]

Placement in the mix has a fair bit to do with it from a recorded perspective and also through a proper PA with everything mic'd up.

Have a look at hard LCR mixing for examples, bass & drums plus lead vocal down the middle and all of the fruit set off to one side or another.

JMTBW.

[Joe3334]

Don't try and completely scoop the mids, leave a little bit in there, boost treble and bass with an EQ (parametric) without it sounding fizzy or boomy.

[Andy123]

In the past I've tried having the bass and treble a bit above half way and the mid around a quarter of the way up. Still had complaints that no one in the audience could hear me. I've attended other gigs with bands with fairly loud & expensive gear (dual rectifiers if I recall correctly) whose guitars could barely be heard at all. I can hear on their recordings that they've gone for a scooped sound. They've probably found a stereo work around in the recording process, but failed live.

What's the secret for doing this live?

[Fretworn]

The trick is learning that what sounds good by itself can be terrible in the mix. In a live context guitars often have to be eq'd more towards the treble end as bass and drums (and often keyboards) take up so much real estate at the bass end of the spectrum. Pete Thorn recommends that guitars always have a low pass filter taking out any sub frequencies. In a recording context compression and stereo spread also do a lot to make guitar stand out more.

I always have my amp set pretty bright as eq is better than volume if you want to be heard.

[Andy123]

The trick is learning that what sounds good by itself can be terrible in the mix. In a live context guitars often have to be eq'd more towards the treble end as bass and drums (and often keyboards) take up so much real estate at the bass end of the spectrum. Pete Thorn recommends that guitars always have a low pass filter taking out any sub frequencies. In a recording context compression and stereo spread also do a lot to make guitar stand out more.

I always have my amp set pretty bright as eq is better than volume if you want to be heard.

...which I completely understand. What doesn't compute for me is that apparently bands like Metallica used to go full scoop and yet their guitars could definitely be heard live. Or is that just a myth?

[Fretworn]

Well, they also either turned the bass down (Newstead) or had very bright bass sounds (Burton). It wasn't till later years that they learned how to have a full bass sound and full guitar sounds. The other trick is to avoid modulation effects or use a multi-amp wet/dry rig (That Pedal Show have talked about this in many of their videos)

[Andy123]

So the answer would be that while some got around this by compensating with volume and creative mixing, this is generally a bad idea that should be discarded alongside mullets and spandex?

[DrNomis_44]

When I first started playing guitar, I was so into the scooped-midrange sound, it's only recently that I've been appreciating a more midrangey tone, hence the reason why I decided to buy myself a decent Marshall amp, the funny thing is, I realized soon afterwards that I've always been into the Marshall sound right from the start, anyway, I tend to keep all the tone controls (low, mid, high) on both amp channels set to the 12:00 position and that works for me, in a live band situation, you definitely want some mids in your tone so that it cuts through in the mix, then add some lows and a little bit of highs to where your tone sounds clear but not ear-piercing or fatiguing, Fender Stratocasters, mine included, do tend to sound a bit too trebly, I think the reason why the scooped-midrange sound became so popular with lots of 80's metal bands is because it made the guitars sound bigger, I agree, the guitar does tend to have quite a lot of midrange in it's tone, try plugging one into a HiFi amp and you'll see what I mean, it will sound thin and weedy since a HiFi amp is designed to have a more or less flat frequency response, most guitar amps are deliberately designed to have a frequency response with a scooped midrange, with a bit of a boost in the lows and highs, a Fender Twin is a great example, Marshalls tend to have less of a midrange scoop in their frequency response, using a Fender Twin and a Marshall Super Lead Plexi as examples again, there's another difference that has a big influence on their tone, and that has to do with the speakers, the Fender Twin has it's speakers in an open-back cabinet, whereas the Marshall Plexi has it's speakers in a closed cab, which means the sound gets projected out the front of the cab.

When Metallica recorded their first album, Kill Em All, they were using Marshall amps and Boss distortion pedals, on the Ride The Lightning album, they switched over to using the Mesa/Boogie Mk IV, the Mesa/Boogie Mk IV is basically a modded Fender amp, modded for high-gain, it uses the same tone-stack circuit as a Fender Twin, but it sure doesn't sound like one when overdriven, the Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier is basically a hot-rodded Marshall amp which borrows design ideas from the Soldano SLO 100, Mike Soldano, the designer of the SLO 100, was one of the pioneers of amp modding back in the 80's along with Randall Smith, who created the Mesa/Boogie Mk I as used by Carlos Santana (it was Carlos Santana who gave Mesa/Boogie it's name after he tried out the Mk I and said that it really boogies).

In a live band giging situation, you really have to be careful how you EQ each of the instruments so that they have space in the mix, otherwise they can compete and you end up with one instrument having a masking effect on another, that's why the scooped-midrange tone tends to get lost in a live mix, usually because it competes with the bass and you end up with the guitar sounding thin and trebly.

[DrNomis_44]

So the answer would be that while some got around this by compensating with volume and creative mixing, this is generally a bad idea that should be discarded alongside mullets and spandex?

You just need to add a bit of midrange to your tone, enough to get it to cut through a live band mix.