Keith's ST1-L

[Keith Walters]

Interesting, I normally level with the radius block, then crown them so the tops of the frets aren't flat, then finish with steel wool. Wouldn't doing the level after filing leave the frets flat on top creating buzz?

Not in my experience. I've re-finished the frets on all my "store bought" guitars the same way and I've never had a problem. The steel wool takes the edges off the flat tops anyway. I'm not sure why you think it would create buzz.

What you have described is how pro luthiers would do it, but you'd need a much more expensive crowning file. Plus, unless you know exactly what you are doing, there's a real risk of undoing the fret levelling.

[Sonic Mountain]

Oh yeah, it's not a criticism, just interesting to see a different process. If it works it works. I'm still very much an amateur so my experience is limited to my current builds and other guitars.

With a flat top on the frets, even with the edges smoothed there is a lot more contact area for the string, unless the bridge-ward side is slightly higher it seems to me that the string may bounce and vibrate against the fret a bit, but maybe I'm over thinking it.

The trick with crowning afterward, and not undoing the levelling, is to very carefully observe when the 'flat disappears and the two edges meet in the middle and stop as soon as that happens. So afterward the fret is a nice round bevel with a high point right in the middle.

I did buy a pretty decent file and it does work well so long as you are patient and not too aggressive.

[Keith Walters]

"With a flat top on the frets, even with the edges smoothed there is a lot more contact area for the string,"
Yes, but as I said in the post, if you get the initial fret leveling right, only a tiny amount needs to be sanded off so the tops aren't going to be all the flat.

My construction description is aimed at the complete novice who doesn't want to spend a huge amount of time and money. I previously made a Jazz Bass which formed the basis of an article for "Silicon Chip" magazine, and the construction description had to be novice level, because most of the readers of that magazine are not going to know anything about guitar construction. A common problem I see here is the tendency to use jargon where plain English would do just as well. If you have to keep Googling obscure terms, it does tend to wear people's enthusiasm down.
Coming from an Electronics engineering background I'm also always questioning "common knowledge", which all too often turns out to be "common Misconception". In particular, I'm always interested to find out whether you really need all the expensive tools people keep telling you you need, or will something cheaper do an adequate job?

[Simon Barden]

The real issue with flat-topped frets is that they reduce the active string length slightly, back to wards the bridge, making accurate intonation across the whole fretboard harder to achieve. The flatter and wider the top of the fret, the worse things will be. The only exception would be on a guitar with a zero fret (as long as that was also treated the same way).

Too wide a top on a flat topped-fret will start to create a sitar-like buzz, but you won't notice anything on a very slightly flat-topped fret.

If you are doing a complete fingerboard fret level, it really is better to level the frets first then re-crown them. And using a notched straight edge to get the fingerboard flat first (which is very achievable unless the fingerboard itself isn't level any more and has twisted) is better than using a straight edge on the top of the frets, as the reason you are doing a fret level in the first place is that the frets aren't all the same height.

[Keith Walters]

All fair enough, but I'm really looking at the beginner spending $149 on a guitar kit, not someone applying for a guitar technician's job for The Rolling Stones :-)

"The real issue with flat-topped frets is that they reduce the active string length slightly, back to wards the bridge, making accurate intonation across the whole fretboard harder to achieve."
This point has been raised made many times, but I still question the validity. A guitar is not like a piano, where the player has no control or influence over the pitch. Slight errors in the positioning of the guitarist's finger are surely going to be "swamp" any errors introduced by by the shape of the fret top. This would be particularly so with your average punter with his sub-$200 kit.


"it really is better to level the frets first then re-crown them."
Not if you're using a sub-$10 crowning file though. Yes, you can easily spend far more than the kit cost on tools, but I question whether for most people it would make any worthwhile difference.

"And using a notched straight edge to get the fingerboard flat first (which is very achievable unless the fingerboard itself isn't level any more and has twisted) is better than using a straight edge on the top of the frets, as the reason you are doing a fret level in the first place is that the frets aren't all the same height."

Sorry; I don't really understand what you mean. This highlights what I alluded to earlier; somebody with a lot of experience and who has possibly made several guitars will no doubt understand, but your first-timer won't.
Is a "notched straight edge" like a ruler with cutouts that straddle the frets? That does sound like an addition to the "The tools cost more than the guitar" list.
The "successive approximation" technique I described (repeating an adjustment a number of times getting smaller errors each time) will always work. That was basically how Elon Musk managed to get his rockets so cheap. (Rather than trying to predict what might go wrong, you pack them full of telemetry to record everything that happens and just let them blow up :-)

[king casey]

Sorry but the 'notched' straight edge serves the function of testing the level of the neck whilst taking the issue of uneven frets out of the equation.
As to the 'cost' well I bought a length of aluminium flat bar from the Big green shed for a few bucks and with a bit of elbow grease made a cheap but worthwhile addition to the tool box.

cheers, Mark.

[Sonic Mountain]

Just to be clear, I only commented originally as a discussion point. This is all good information and the truth is there is more than one way to skin a cat in almost every aspect of guitar building and many levels of detail you can put into setting up.

I'm still really just a beginner myself.

So in the spirit of friendly discussion, this is an interesting point:

A guitar is not like a piano, where the player has no control or influence over the pitch. Slight errors in the positioning of the guitarist's finger are surely going to be "swamp" any errors introduced by by the shape of the fret top. This would be particularly so with your average punter with his sub-$200 kit.

But my understanding is the note is dependent on the fret itself creating the 'end' point for the string. Where you push your finger down in against the fret board shouldn't matter should it? so long as the string is cleanly pulled down over the fret.

The notched straight edge really is pretty simple and cheap to make up yourself. I started out using a steel ruler against the frets and its certainly good enough to get a nice playing neck if you are careful and patient. The notched version is a nice step up though and very clearly illustrates any deviation in the neck. I have a couple of them now for my various guitars and basses, I've just made another one to suit a fender bass I'm going to have a go at setting up this afternoon. I think the flat bar was about $8 and about 15min work with a file to notch.

[Simon Barden]

There are certainly issues with intonation and finger fretting pressure, all tending to sharpen the pitch of the fretted note. But that's no reason not to try and start off with the best possible fret profile, with the crown in the very middle, so that the note is as in tune as it can be. All tunings are compromised and I'll never argue otherwise. String gauge, fret height and fretting pressure all have an effect on the intonation. Even the size of your fingertips will have an effect on how much the string is stretched and so provide an increase in string tension. A large part of that can be tuned out by the saddle position, though a heavy handed and a light fingered player may find the same guitar in tine and slightly out of tune for those reasons.

I find the best way to look at these things is to take the fret crown position variation to an absurd limit. Lets say they vary between 0mm and 3mm out from what they should be (I know - not real life at all). But would you expect that guitar to play in tune and for chords to sound correct? No. So reduce that variation and the guitar is going to sound more in tune. Get back to no variation and (assuming the frets are installed in the right position), it's going to be as in tune as it is ever going to be.

A lot of people apparently can't hear a 3 cent difference between two notes, so on single notes, many people won't tell if a note is very slightly out or not. But it is more obvious when playing chords (and I know that there are some chords that will always sound slightly out on a guitar due to the compromise involved in equal temperament tuning).

All I'm really saying is that the end result will be that bit better better if you first level the frets, then do the fret profiling.

You may also need to use some P400 or P600 grit (and then some higher grits) rubbed lengthways along the frets before using steel wool on the frets if you find that the levelling along the frets has left some scratch marks in the frets. It's amazing how even a very shallow scratch across the fret can make the fret feel very 'gritty' when bending a string, even though it feels smooth under your finger. So I always run a bit of top E string along each fret to make sure that it's not catching at all before I stop polishing.

The fretwire used on the kits isn't particularly hard, so you may smooth it all with steel wool, but it's best to check, and its quicker to use some sandpaper to remove cross-scratches than steel wool. I now use Micro-Mesh for fret polishing as steel wool leaves a lot of small fibres around, but I used it quite happily before I got the Micro-Mesh (though I often forgot to tape over the pickups when fettling existing guitars and spent a few minutes getting rid of the steel filings with the sticky side of some sticky tape).

[Keith Walters]

OK, so here's some further progress on my build:

The next step is to get the bridge and the scratchplate/pickup assembly aligned and screwed into place. The easiest way to do this is to run two lengths of string from the high and low “E” slots in the nut…



… over the corresponding saddles on the bridge, tensioning them via weights handing over the edge. This marks out the positions of the high and low "E" strings, making it easy to align the pickup magnets and the bridge.



The mid-point of the saddles' intonation adjustment ranges must coincide with twice the distance from the nut to the 12th fret. You can easily achieve this by marking the string with a Texta pen as follows:

First place an elongated blob of Blu-Tack behind the 12th fret (that is on top of the two dots.)…



…then press the short steel ruler down on the Blu-Tack so that the pickup side is directly above the middle of the 12th fret. (For clarity I’ve shown the edge of the ruler slightly behind the 12th fret so you can see what is happening).

[Keith Walters]

Double the strings back up to the nut, first wrapping them round the pickup end edge of the ruler, passing them over the nut, and then holding them in place with more Blu tak…




Then it’s just a simple matter of marking the string with the Texta pen like this:



After that, hang the weights back over the end of the body and run the two strings over the two "E" bridge saddles.