I've ordered fresh supplies of spirits, unlike Gav from Fires Creek, you can only drink so much Tru Oil
I've ordered fresh supplies of spirits, unlike Gav from Fires Creek, you can only drink so much Tru Oil
Stan's LP Build for my Sister: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=3146
Benson Pickup Strat mod: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=5229
Epiphone LP headstock fix: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=3410
Martin Backpacker Repair: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...?t=5038&page=3
'57 Harmony Jazz guitar project: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=2972
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?
yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses
Current Builds and status
scratch end grain pine tele - first clear coat on !
JBA-4 - assembled - final tweaks
Telemonster double scale tele - finish tobacco burst on body and sand neck
Completed builds
scratch oak.rose gum Jazzmaster - assembled needs setup
MK-2 Mosrite - assembled - play in
Ash tele with Baritone neck - neck pup wiring tweaks and play in
cont from...http://www.pitbullguitars.com/commun...topic&t=1155.9
Firstly Gav, great explanation man, very interesting.Hey Bargeloobs, First things first...
You mentioned 'Nitro' (as I have just done) so we will have to continue our discussion in the Naughty Room where beer is on tap and Pizza's in the oven.
For your and anyone else who thinks we dis Nitro, we don't really. We just aren't that excited about the tone killing properties of the product. It certainly looks great. So what follows is not a defence of our view but more of an explanation of it. We recognise that there are other who disagree with our view.
DB and I and a number of others on the forum are TONE-focussed. the history of guitar finishes is an interesting one. Initially the Fenders and Gibsons of the world were quite happy applying a finish (possibly reminiscent of Wudtone / Dingotone) because they had less of a demand for the product than would be experienced shortly after. They had time to allow their paint to sure properly.
But the tone of these guitars (many of which are classics today) was terrific, but there came a point where to increase production and to get the end product to the market they had to come up with something that dried and cured faster, hence the introduction of Nitro (don't worry - Nitro is an allowable word in the Naughty Room.) This meant the end product was finished faster and looked great too. Unfortunately, in the view of many TONE was compromised. There is a debate around this - it depends on your ear and what you are used to and what you know is possible.
Perhaps by way of illustration consider a great voice singing naturally versus putting a fish bowl over your head and singing.... Particularly relevant with acoustic guitars where the difference is so audible that Taylor's new 800 series is now painted with an extremely thin but durable UV product. The Taylors now sound sensational whereas to my ears even their top of the range guitars used to go "Thud" when you played them rather than 'sparkle'.
Again the debate with electrics is interesting because the view held is that the sound only comes from the pickups. But what are the pickup picking up? The strings. What influences the tone, sustain and vibration of the strings? The nut and the bridge, and these are attached to the material of the guitar, be that a variety of wood, metal, oil can, cigar box, Perspex, etc. With an acoustic guitar the body is designed to be an 'air pump'. The better the vibration of the soundboard, the better the 'sound' that emanates from the guitar. This is why you will find that a soundboard of an acoustic is usually always a 'light wood' like Bunya, Sitka, Adirondack, cedar, redwood, etc. and the back and sides will be a hardwood like the rosewood family (Indian, Brazilian, Honduran, Madagascar), cocobolo, Zebrawood, Katalox, Ebony family, etc. The mahogany, maple and Koa is considered a medium wood and hence sometimes you will find the soundboard and the back and sides of the guitar will be constructed in that wood. The ability of the body to vibrate will be influenced by the choice of wood. This is true also of electrics which is why different wood tend towards different tonal properties. However, the moment you throw copious amounts of finish on to the wood, these properties are altered because the wood will not vibrate in the same way. This changes how the strings behave and ultimately what the pickups will amplify. Again all this can be altered by the sound processors, but garbage in garbage out.... to some extent.
Hence, while DB, myself and others will marvel at the beauty of a Nitro finish, we would compromise the rich deep gloss of a nitro finish for pure TONE. Wudtone certainly retains the tone of a well built and well thought out instrument but lacked the depth that is seen in a Nitro finish. Dingotone achieves both Tone and Depth of finish.
Whilst I'll admit right now I know very little about the tonal characteristics of specific timbers I fully understand where you're coming from when you talk about deadening a timber (and therefore the tone) through the use of various coatings when applied too heavily.
I think from a purists perspective you're absolutely right, I think from the average Joe's perspective it's not really an issue.
I'd be willing to bet any average (and probably many exceptional) guitarists would be hard pressed to even tell the difference in tone between two identical electric guitars with different finishes (e.g nitro vs dingotone), furthermore think of any famous guitarist of the 20th century, renown for his "tone" and you'll probably find he's either playing or has played an electric guitar that has a nitro finish.
It's like when I hear people talking about how a 96Khz recording sounds so much better than one tracked at 48Khz, it makes me laugh.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I think the effects of Nitro are negligible when talking about electric guitars and their tone, and in all reality an acrylic or poly finish would be far more detrimental to tone as they, by their very nature inherently thicker.
By all means prove me wrong...make me a believer.
I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone.
PK
Kellza
(PK)
"Jack of all trades, Master of None"
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both of course!/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from wokkaboy on May 19, 2014, 11:39
good move Stan, what are we talking whiskeys or bourbons you stocked up on?
yer Gav T seems to drink tru oil in pint glasses
We need to make up a whole bunch of one kit and do a tone comparison, mythbusters shoot out style, on finishes, nuts, pots, cheap and expensive pickups with same resistance etc....
Stan's LP Build for my Sister: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=3146
Benson Pickup Strat mod: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=5229
Epiphone LP headstock fix: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=3410
Martin Backpacker Repair: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...?t=5038&page=3
'57 Harmony Jazz guitar project: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...ead.php?t=2972
I'd tend to agree with you on that one PK./<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/Quote from kells80aus on May 28, 2014, 14:42
I don't think Nitro has any more to do with the guitar, than to let the wood breath.
It is the wood that makes or breaks the tone.
PK
Doing my home work alot on this beleive me, modern acrylic clears applied thin enough have no more effect on tone then a nitro finish. As quoted modern arcrylics dry very hard thus causing great resinance of there own. Natural wood will lose a percentage of quality regardless of what finish is applied. Dont get wrong your best tone qualities will always come from the least amount of finnish possible. Tru oil and any gloss /semi gloss finnish will have an affect. So the bottom line is regardless of your choice of finish keep it as thin as possible for your best results. As stated above , Steve via/ the edge / slash / joe satriarni / Richi sambora /nuno Betencourt and the list goes on.....are all known for there tone all be it through wood and electronics and nitro / acrylic finishes. Remember acrylic has more or less the same properties as nitro minus the solvents. It is classed as the modern nitro wothout the yellowing over time. These are not my words but words of many experts around the world. So weather your choice be nitro/ acrylic or dingo tone, enjoy how your instrument looks. And remember you will be able to use dingo tone colours for your grain under your acrylic clear. My personal choice will be to do that due to Dingo's colours compared to any other dyes on the market and of cause its a natural product made right here in Aus
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.
If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things
so basically like your latest bass DB ?
it did sound awesome what a beast of a bass. Next time we leave I'll get Popeye to distract you and I'll pop in in the car haha
Current Builds and status
scratch end grain pine tele - first clear coat on !
JBA-4 - assembled - final tweaks
Telemonster double scale tele - finish tobacco burst on body and sand neck
Completed builds
scratch oak.rose gum Jazzmaster - assembled needs setup
MK-2 Mosrite - assembled - play in
Ash tele with Baritone neck - neck pup wiring tweaks and play in
"ni ni" I laffed!/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[/<\\/p>[]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/]<\\/p>/Quote from dingobass on June 6, 2014, 07:49
Some very valid points re finishes and their tonal effects..
Whilst 'crylic and ni, ni.... That stuff.... do give a strong surface protection there is a slight tradeoff with tone.
Of course the better quality of timber used will negate this loss of tone even further.
If you want a real tone monster the way to go is string through on a neck through construction using bone or Mother of Pearl nut and bridge saddles and finishing the instrument with wax, oils or shellac.. But not everyone is as anal as me about these things
So essentially you've said it yourself DB "there is a slight tradeoff with tone", so in fact using the term "tone killer" is (I think you'll agree) a bit extreme.
I think they're all valid points too but we must look at "tone" objectively and not get hung up on certain products just because we prefer them over others, I reckon if something sounds good then....it probably is (and vice versa).
Hmmm.... a string through, neck through Firebird...