Thank you so much for taking the time to put these schematics together.
I play mostly in the Bridge position. So practically, Option 3 was immediately appealing as I'll only need to pull two pots to get into series/out of phase.
Options 1 and 2 were appealing as they feed the bridge into the neck pickup when in Series mode. But, to get from the Bridge only position, I'll need to change the toggle plus pull two pots to get into series/out of phase.
Option 4 is the one I'm most curious to try due to the options on all settings, but I'm not sure how much of those options I would use, practically.
So...
Having said all that, and while I'm yet to set aside any of those options, after considering posts since, a one-switch single fixed series configuration with one pickup out of phase (polarity) may reflect the best outcome for me.
Noting the S1 switch won't fit, and that I would need to drill a hole to the front of the body, would either of these work/fit?
I assume this could be done feeding the bridge into the neck when in series?
And so I can have my cake and eat it too, would it be simple enough to wire this with one push/pull pot that changes the phasing of a pickup? That way, I imagine I could retain the option of out of phase (polarity) in parallel via a push/pull pot, as well as have a one-switch single fixed series configuration with one pickup out of phase (polarity). I assume that if this push/pull pot was engaged with the 4PDT mini toggle you're suggesting, that it would then be in-series/in-phase.
It seems a great solution for in-phase/out-phase/series/parallel with minimal interference by too many pots in the circuit.
A parallel/series in/out phase set of options would normally be perfect for the Free-Way Ultra switch. It’s a two row 3-way, giving you 6 positions, which would do everything you want all in a single switch… but currently costs more than the price of a small moon. And, while it is a very shallow switch, it has a huge diameter. So, probably fortunately, there’s no way to manoeuvre it in through the f-hole (see below) and would therefore require cutting an access hole in the back of the body. A ‘standard’ Free-Way *may* be able to squeeze through the f-hole, but (from memory) I don’t think it can provide all the options you want.
The good news is those mini-switches have just enough thread to mount through the top. They are listed as 8.9mm thread which matches mine, and look identical. When I test mounted mine on a spare ES I left the base nut on and that sat inside the pot hole that I used, and there was room for the flat washer and nut (but I didn’t use the grab washer). The top’s thickness on mine is ~4mm, but with finish could be a little more.
Having a ‘phase’ push/pull in combination with the 4PDT mini-switch would work as you want. The mini toggle would give you series ‘out of phase’ and with the push/pull up you would have series ‘in phase’ ( or ‘out-of out-of phase’). And, the push/pull by itself allows parallel ‘out of phase’. The caveats being the 4PDT can only do its thing in combination with a Switchcraft style 3-way toggle switch where the two output lugs can be separated. And, this is still going to be a challenging layout to wire and solder… and a nightmare to fit through the f-hole and mount.
Note that the second of those switches requires you to pull up on the switch first before it can be moved to the other position. It saves it being knocked by accident, but if you use it live, then it might not make for the smoothest of selections, especially if you have sweaty hands.
Also, you’ll probably want the switch to operate in either a vertical or horizontal mode. Which means that it needs to go within easy reach of the F-hole so you can hold it in the right position whilst you tighten the nut up. A stiff wiring harness may keep it in place, but it makes getting it through the F-hole harder and if you are like me, you won’t want it operating at a slight angle.
Simon, thanks for pointing that out about the actuator. I've ordered the first one, but just wrote to the supplier to confirm it does not have that same 'feature'. And yes, like you, it would forever drive me nuts if it were not aligned properly!
Scott, you're a legend. The freeway ultra switch looks amazing! But big...
I think the three way toggle I have is what's needed. The switches I have are:
Many thanks for your assistance and investing time with your suggestions and drawings. It's obvious you're passionate about this stuff. I'm really excited about where this discussion is landing. And I'm learning a lot along the way.
The push/pull pot swaps the polarity (phase) of the Bridge pickup, and the output from that then feeds the 4PDT mini-toggle.
With the mini-toggle 'up' everything works as normal:
Bridge volume and Tone, Neck volume and tone all work as expected, and the 3-way Toggle gives you Bridge, Bridge + Neck parallel, Neck. Pulling the push/pull up changes that to 'Bridge (out of Phase) + Neck parallel' in the middle position.
Mini-Toggle 'down' switches to series mode, and changes several things:
1. The Bridge volume and tone are disconnected from the circuit.
2. The Bridge polarity (phase) gets reversed, putting it out of phase with the Neck. However, if the push/pull is 'up' then it gets reversed twice, putting it back in phase.
3. The Bridge pickup is linked in series with the Neck pickup.
4. The Neck volume and tone are connected directly to the output, ignoring the setting of the 3-way toggle switch, and act as master controls.
This configuration relies on the separate output lugs of the Switchcraft style toggle switch to enable the 4PDT switch to make all the changes. It wouldn't work with a standard kit box style 3-way.
This is going to be a challenging layout to wire up, particularly in a way that you can fit through the f-hole of an ES kit. You may need get some 4/5-conductor shielded cable to make the connections from the push/pull to the mini-toggle and from the 3-way right-angle toggle to the mini-toggle, as there are 3 or 4 connections between each.
The 'dark grey' wires on the diagram are the ground connections, and I tried to route them so that 'bundles' of wires will have a nearby ground point. But, how they actually get configured will depend on what type of wire you use and how you group everything to fit through the f-hole. The important part is that any 'dark grey dot' ground connection eventually connects to a ground point that leads to the jack(-). If you get what I mean.
Scott: Thank you so much for preparing this - it is perfect. I admit to being rather daunted by the amount of wiring, but after spending some time studying the diagram, you've made the routing clear very clear and clean. In fact, you could not have made this clearer and easier to follow. And it’s going to do precisely what I want I to achieve.
Scott/Simon: I have three FINAL questions:
1) Wire Choices. I’m proposing to use the following types of wire for this harness. Thoughts? Is there a better way?
Vintage Cloth Wire with Braided Shield (and heatshrink over the top)
1xground/1xactive between Neck Volume and Neck Tone
1xground/1xactive between Bridge Volume and Bridge Tone
1xground/1xactive between 3-way Toggle Switch and Jack
1xground/1xactive between 3-way Toggle Switch and Bridge Volume
Shielded 4 Conductor Pickup Wire
1xground/3xactive between 4PDT and Bridge Volume
3xactive between 4PDT and 3-way Toggle Switch
Vintage Cloth Wire OR Vintage Cloth Wire with Braided Shield (and heatshrink over the top)
1xactive between 4PDT and Neck Volume
1xground between 3-way Toggle Switch and Neck Volume
PVC Insulated Wire
1xground between Jack and Bridge (Ground)
6 small connections (active/ground) within the 4PDT and Bridge/Neck Volume
2) Shielding. Do pickup cavities require shielding?
3) Grounding. I’m installing a bigsby (style) tremolo with Tonepros Roller Bridge. I’m assuming I can still ground to the bridge, or will I need to drill a hole through to the end of the body and ground to the bigsby?
Thanks both for your ongoing assistance. Hopefully this will all be of use for others, too.
If covered, then no, shielding is not required as they are enclosed in a grounded metal case and so are already shielded. You can shield the pickup cavities if you want to, it won’t do any harm, but you’ll need to run ground wires to each cavity, adding to the wiring count and you might want to think about widening the pickup cavity to control cavity holes slightly to make it easy to get the cables in and out.
If uncovered, then the single coil modes of each pickup could benefit from shielded cavities. Wiring notes above apply. But you’ve got a lot of wiring to fit in already and it’s very easy for wires to get tangled round pots when stuffing them in the F-hole and restricting movement and maybe requiring the harness to come out again to be sorted.
Before I put covers on them, The BK Mules in my Jimmy Page LP worked quite happily in single coil mode without shielded pickup cavities.
3) Grounding the bridge as standard is all that’s required.
The choices generally seem reasonable. There is no one right way to do it, so it comes down to a simple ‘does it work’ situation. Due to the complexity of the wiring, it might be easier to do more in singles than braided wire. Most of the runs are very short, and by the time you’ve cut the braid back to expose enough central core to wire up with you’ve got no braid shield left.
I’d always wire the short lengths in standard singles. e.g. between the volume and tone pots. Actually I’d rearrange Weirdy’s tone pot diagram so the orange drop runs between the volume and tone pot. The thick wire leads help keep the tone and volume pots aligned, making it easier to get the shafts through the holes.
As to other multicore wiring options, it all depends on where they are in relation to one another. Short distances, don’t bother. Also, if you use shielded cable but don’t connect the shield to ground - it’s not shielded. For shielding, you only need one end connected to ground unless it’s also being used as a ground link. Cut the unused end braid back and I’d cover it with heatshrink to be safe.
I tend to use tinned solid copper solid wire to do the links on switches. PVC insulation tends to melt back, so I use heatshrink on the bare wire for insulation. Though if using cloth singles, I may just run a longer length of the exposed core wire between adjacent contact tabs. I often use the solid wire to create a ground connection point. If you’ve got a lot of ground wires going to a pot, it’s easier to solder one solid core wire to the pot and then create a loop in the wire big enough to put your other ground wires through and solder them to that. You can normally get a larger diameter heat shrink over the joint if you think ahead.
I’d make your cardboard wiring template up and mark on the f-hole location before putting the components in place. Don’t forget that you’ll be fitting everything from underneath, so mark the template ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ and fit everything on the bottom side (I’ve got it wrong before myself).
Then you’ll have a much better idea of the length of runs and so to what wires to use.
You’ll also want to avoid cables showing through the F-hole.
You’ll find you’ll almost certainly want to extend the neck pickup lead, which you’ll need to do before you connect up the wiring. You’ll have the choice of running it to the neck volume pot first, and then taking the necessary wires off to the 4PDT switch, or to the 4PDT switch and then to the neck volume pot. Either way you’ll probably find the Neck pickup lead is a few cm too short. Tonerider use the same length lead for bridge and neck pickups. But as the neck lead has to run a longer distance and the lead comes out the ‘top’ side of the pickup when the screws face forwards so also has to run across the pickup cavity, it’s too short for a 335. Especially when avoiding running cables across the F-hole. You don’t want to spend ages getting a nice finish and then have a jumble of wiring spaghetti showing.
So I’d recommend taping wires together where possible to stop them flopping. This helps make the harness stiffer. Maybe harder to get in, but once in, easier to fit and remove.
Everything that Simon has said ++. Care and planning will often be the difference between getting the wiring working and installed and something getting smashed.
A lot of images incoming, so probably multiple posts…
First, I’d get some paper and make a rubbing of the holes, including the f-hole, and use that to cut your cardboard template. Then it’s time to work out where you want your mini-toggle and how you want the parts oriented to each other.
The right-angle 3-way is a big switch, but you most likely still want it oriented towards the pots. That means either pointed towards the f-hole or pointed up above the neck volume. If it’s the latter, then you need to check there will be enough clearance from the centre-block in the body to accommodate the switch and multiple wire attachments. Also, if you’re connecting your bridge ground wire from the bridge post then it’s going to be easier to go to the 3-way’s ground point, rather than the jack in my diagram.
Once you have decided on positions and orientations, you then need to think about the other components and wires routes.
As Simon stated, caps as the link between pots can be ideal and eliminate a wire link. But, they can also make things more difficult with how they need to be positioned, particularly when it comes to finagling the harness in through the f-hole.
The position of the components will affect how you need to route your wiring and which wire(s) would work best (and exposed in the f-hole or completely hidden). Sometimes you want a stiff harness, other times it needs to be more flexible. In the above configuration you may want a ‘U’ shaped wiring pattern that runs from the jack across the neck tone to neck volume to 3-way, then a loop back down that route then across to the bridge tone, bridge volume and mini-toggle. Using braid from the jack up to the 3-way, then a combo of braid and multi-core for the loop down and across to the bridge controls and mini-switch could be a viable option. The pickup leads length also comes into play, especially if you need to extend them, and where and how you want to attach them to the harness. And, will the harness be partially of fully inside the body at the time.
… you also need to consider how you will need to manipulate the components to get them through the f-hole once everything is connected. The jack, push/pull and mini-toggle will all fit through the f-hole easily but once wires are attached it can become more tricky.
The right-angle 3-way needs to have one end in first then slide forward insert the other end. Which will be much more difficult with half-a dozen wires of various thickness attached. Possibly the most difficult will be the full-sized pots. They can’t go straight through and instead have to be inserted at an angle. This is where the position and way the caps are attached can make a difference, plus all the other wires and ground connections hanging off them. Challenging to say the least.
The more you can work out these issues, and even test them, before you fully commit to the full harness the more likely it will succeed.
First step, work out where you want everything and then we can all weigh in on the best way to achieve it.
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