Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: I was gifted an aucustic ibanez 12 string guitar, help me treat it right

  1. #1

    Restoring 30 year old acoustic 12 string Ibanez

    [NOTE; i dont know what i am doing, never even owned an acoustic guitar before]

    I changed the title because this is quickly becoming a restoration


    Took some pictures to show the problems, the bulging of the top was bad causing high string action, i am going to attempt to fix it by myself and some help from you guys

    Last edited by Manisk; 28-06-2022 at 08:06 AM.

  2. #2
    i have two packs of ernie ball regular slinky, are these okay to re-wire with or should i wait until i get the right stuff?

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    228
    Given it has been sitting for a while it might be worth getting a guitar tech to do a full setup.
    The nut may need a bit of work apart from truss rod adjustments.
    Lemon oil is probably the best to use on the fret board. It helps to clean gunk off as well as nourish the fretboard which is probably rosewood.
    12 string guitars do not have pairs strung to the same pitch. Only top E and B are tuned the same, the other four are tuned one octave apart so regular strings are not usable

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by colin2121 View Post
    Given it has been sitting for a while it might be worth getting a guitar tech to do a full setup.
    The nut may need a bit of work apart from truss rod adjustments.
    Lemon oil is probably the best to use on the fret board. It helps to clean gunk off as well as nourish the fretboard which is probably rosewood.
    12 string guitars do not have pairs strung to the same pitch. Only top E and B are tuned the same, the other four are tuned one octave apart so regular strings are not usable
    thanks for your time, although it might require a guitar tech to reclaim the guitar fully i do feel confident that i am able to get close by myself since i've had 2 electric builds so far
    i couldnt get ahold of lemon oil so i used the linseed, the fretboard was extremely dry and is still soaking up the oil
    i also spent some time to freshen up the frets, removing small nicks and polishing with a leather strop







    can i oil inside the guitar aswell? and what if any information can get from the serial number?
    Last edited by Manisk; 26-06-2022 at 11:53 AM.

  5. #5
    current state of the fretboard, still thirsty ;D


    I also disassembled all the tuners, perhaps some very light oil ought to do them well?


    This might be a problem tho, i did a dry-fit with a new 42 gauge string, the action is absolutely far too high, will my truss rod really remedy this?
    Last edited by Manisk; 26-06-2022 at 12:09 PM.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    228
    I would not oil the inside of an acoustic. That would cause the wood to swell and a whole new range of problems. Best to leave the inside alone.
    The neck appears to have a bit of a bow. I have put together 9 solid bodies, number 10 is waiting in its box. Electric necks are easy to take off and replace. Acoustic necks are not.
    12 strings have a lot of tension with 12 strings pulling on them. I would be inclined to get a tech to look at it as the nut probably needs some work on it as well. If you attempt to adjust the truss rod, do it in small increments withe strings very loose and tighten them again after each small increment then loosen again etc.

  7. #7
    GAStronomist Simon Barden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Reading, UK
    Posts
    10,547
    It's very hard to say whether the guitar can be made playable without having it in one's own hands.

    First off I'd say go easy on the boiled linseed oil. Yes, a lot of people do use it for oiling fretboards, but for them, it's a case of wiping it on, leaving it for a few seconds and then wiping off the excess. Boiled linseed oil makes up a large proportion of TruOil, and is a glossy wood finish in its own right. Put too much on and you'll end up with a lacquered fingerboard. I'd stop putting it on now.

    Alternatives are lemon oil or mineral oil (chopping board oil). These are proper oils, and just stop the fretboard from drying out.

    I'd have scraped the fretboard first with a single sided razor blade. This is very good for removing the worst of fingerboard gunk and smoothing out the board.

    The serial number says it was made in January 1991 at the FujiGen Gakki factory, Japan.

    I've just repaired an 80's Yamaha 12-string that also had a very high action, and got it to be a really low action and easy playing guitar. It took a bit of work but the basic guitar sound.

    Two things generally happen on 12-strings over time.

    1) The top 'bellies' up, so instead of having the top almost flat as when originally built, there is now a pronounced arch to it and the bridge now sits 2-3mm higher than it should do. The bridge may also be angling forwards.

    2) The internal neck block is squashed over time under the string tension, so the neck angle changes and the neck points down towards the body instead of at the bridge.

    And of course you can get a combination of 1 and 2.

    The Yamaha 12-string's neck angle was fine, but the top was bellying a bit and the saddle was high off the top.

    I cured the bellying by fitting a JLD Bridge Doctor (screw-mount version). This works remarkably well at keeping the top flat. But the pin-mount version may be better if you haven't got enough space behind the bridge pins to drill a mounting hole. It all depends on the bridge design, though I think you could just about do it on the Ibanez.

    The bridge block was quite chunky, but the saddle was only poking out of the slot by 2mm, so there was no way to simply lower the saddle itself without having zero break angle for the strings. So I took about 2mm off the height of the bridge block (known as a 'bridge shave') so I could take off 2mm from the bottom of the saddle.

    I just taped up around the bridge, marked on how much I wanted to take off and then used an electric sander to remove the wood (other methods to do this are available, though I found it very controllable). Then some hand sanding with finer grits to get it level and smooth, and in this case painting it black as before, though you can just finish with linseed oil or lemon/mineral oil.

    The limiting factor to doing this is the depth of the existing saddle slot. You'll want at least 50% of the saddle sitting in the slot, and it can't be too shallow or the saddle will angle-over regardless. I was lucky in that the 12-string was an electro-acoustic, and had a really tall piezo element in a metal enclosure sitting under it. I swapped this for a much lower profile piezo element, which gave me my extra slot depth.

    If the slot isn't that deep to start with, then you'll have to rout it deeper, which required a very good routing jig and using a Dremel as a router rather than a standard router as you'll need a very thin router bit and a small router footprint. Lots of YouTube videos on this, but start with StewMac. But you don't want to go any lower than just above the top of top itself, so measuring with callipers is important here to work out just how far you can go.

    My first attempt to make up a jig ended up with a very wonky line in my template, so I gave up and used the lower piezo element trick (as well as removing a few plastic packing pieces in the slot).

    But if the neck is pointing down below the bridge, it is really a lot of hard work to remedy and the neck needs to come off and be reset (with probably some extra strengthening of the neck block). So before doing anything else, you need to use a notched straight edge and the truss rod to get the neck flat, then run a straight edge along the neck to see where it hits the bridge (a 600mm steel rule is ideal for this as you don't need to remove the nut as you would with a 1m rule).

    From your pictures, it looks like the last few frets slope down a bit, so ignore those (as they are beyond the neck join so pretty much unplayable), and get the main part of the fretboard level.

    Note that a neck reset is a luthier job (not something I'd like to attempt), will take a fair amount of time, and time is money. So it's almost certainly going to cost more than the guitar is currently worth in that condition, and probably as much as it is worth when fixed.

    If it looks like the top has bellied, you need to be able to envisage where the top of the saddle would sit if you made the mitigating measures described above and you were able to lower the saddle height. If it's still hitting below the top of the 'virtual' saddle, then you are never going to get a good action over all the neck and its always going to be hard to play. Probably best to either walk away from it or set it up using the truss rod and cutting the nut slots, so that its playable up to say the 5th fret, even if this means setting it up with some back-bow.

    If it's hitting level with the top of the virtual saddle, then all is good and you won't need to lower the saddle by so much, and probably just the Bridge Doctor will do it, as well as some truss rod adjustment and cutting the nut slots.

    If you are unsure about the above, take some more photos from the side showing the top and any bulge (which will be far less with no strings on) and where a straight-edge hits the bridge after the neck is straightened.

    And finally, yes, you need a proper acoustic 12-string set of strings, not electric guitar strings. 10s are normally the lowest gauge strings they do for 12-strings and I'd get those, to minimise string tension.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Barden View Post
    It's very hard to say whether the guitar can be made playable without having it in one's own hands.

    First off I'd say go easy on the boiled linseed oil. Yes, a lot of people do use it for oiling fretboards, but for them, it's a case of wiping it on, leaving it for a few seconds and then wiping off the excess. Boiled linseed oil makes up a large proportion of TruOil, and is a glossy wood finish in its own right. Put too much on and you'll end up with a lacquered fingerboard. I'd stop putting it on now.

    Alternatives are lemon oil or mineral oil (chopping board oil). These are proper oils, and just stop the fretboard from drying out.

    I'd have scraped the fretboard first with a single sided razor blade. This is very good for removing the worst of fingerboard gunk and smoothing out the board.

    The serial number says it was made in January 1991 at the FujiGen Gakki factory, Japan.

    I've just repaired an 80's Yamaha 12-string that also had a very high action, and got it to be a really low action and easy playing guitar. It took a bit of work but the basic guitar sound.

    Two things generally happen on 12-strings over time.

    1) The top 'bellies' up, so instead of having the top almost flat as when originally built, there is now a pronounced arch to it and the bridge now sits 2-3mm higher than it should do. The bridge may also be angling forwards.

    2) The internal neck block is squashed over time under the string tension, so the neck angle changes and the neck points down towards the body instead of at the bridge.

    And of course you can get a combination of 1 and 2.

    The Yamaha 12-string's neck angle was fine, but the top was bellying a bit and the saddle was high off the top.

    I cured the bellying by fitting a JLD Bridge Doctor (screw-mount version). This works remarkably well at keeping the top flat. But the pin-mount version may be better if you haven't got enough space behind the bridge pins to drill a mounting hole. It all depends on the bridge design, though I think you could just about do it on the Ibanez.

    The bridge block was quite chunky, but the saddle was only poking out of the slot by 2mm, so there was no way to simply lower the saddle itself without having zero break angle for the strings. So I took about 2mm off the height of the bridge block (known as a 'bridge shave') so I could take off 2mm from the bottom of the saddle.

    I just taped up around the bridge, marked on how much I wanted to take off and then used an electric sander to remove the wood (other methods to do this are available, though I found it very controllable). Then some hand sanding with finer grits to get it level and smooth, and in this case painting it black as before, though you can just finish with linseed oil or lemon/mineral oil.

    The limiting factor to doing this is the depth of the existing saddle slot. You'll want at least 50% of the saddle sitting in the slot, and it can't be too shallow or the saddle will angle-over regardless. I was lucky in that the 12-string was an electro-acoustic, and had a really tall piezo element in a metal enclosure sitting under it. I swapped this for a much lower profile piezo element, which gave me my extra slot depth.

    If the slot isn't that deep to start with, then you'll have to rout it deeper, which required a very good routing jig and using a Dremel as a router rather than a standard router as you'll need a very thin router bit and a small router footprint. Lots of YouTube videos on this, but start with StewMac. But you don't want to go any lower than just above the top of top itself, so measuring with callipers is important here to work out just how far you can go.

    My first attempt to make up a jig ended up with a very wonky line in my template, so I gave up and used the lower piezo element trick (as well as removing a few plastic packing pieces in the slot).

    But if the neck is pointing down below the bridge, it is really a lot of hard work to remedy and the neck needs to come off and be reset (with probably some extra strengthening of the neck block). So before doing anything else, you need to use a notched straight edge and the truss rod to get the neck flat, then run a straight edge along the neck to see where it hits the bridge (a 600mm steel rule is ideal for this as you don't need to remove the nut as you would with a 1m rule).

    From your pictures, it looks like the last few frets slope down a bit, so ignore those (as they are beyond the neck join so pretty much unplayable), and get the main part of the fretboard level.

    Note that a neck reset is a luthier job (not something I'd like to attempt), will take a fair amount of time, and time is money. So it's almost certainly going to cost more than the guitar is currently worth in that condition, and probably as much as it is worth when fixed.

    If it looks like the top has bellied, you need to be able to envisage where the top of the saddle would sit if you made the mitigating measures described above and you were able to lower the saddle height. If it's still hitting below the top of the 'virtual' saddle, then you are never going to get a good action over all the neck and its always going to be hard to play. Probably best to either walk away from it or set it up using the truss rod and cutting the nut slots, so that its playable up to say the 5th fret, even if this means setting it up with some back-bow.

    If it's hitting level with the top of the virtual saddle, then all is good and you won't need to lower the saddle by so much, and probably just the Bridge Doctor will do it, as well as some truss rod adjustment and cutting the nut slots.

    If you are unsure about the above, take some more photos from the side showing the top and any bulge (which will be far less with no strings on) and where a straight-edge hits the bridge after the neck is straightened.

    And finally, yes, you need a proper acoustic 12-string set of strings, not electric guitar strings. 10s are normally the lowest gauge strings they do for 12-strings and I'd get those, to minimise string tension.
    Thanks a lot simon for your input, very informative - i can respond to you with a little video where you can see a lot more, furthermore i have been sanding the neck to add some character to it, i've been intentionally wet sanding at the later grits, all the while working the truss rod nut a couple of degrees now and then - the neck has certainly moved the right way without any creaking noises and i cant see any obvious fatigue of the wood

    Its difficult to see in the video as i dont have the right tools at hand, but the action is within a reasonable height if you consider the adjustment possibilities at the bridge



    dont mind the partly sanded neck, im experimenting with a weathered look ;D
    Last edited by Manisk; 26-06-2022 at 07:01 PM.

  9. #9
    I sanded down the tailpiece a lot today, i also cut away the bottom in the bridge slot to give more room for adjustment
    Here you can see i placed a straight edge over the entire guitar, the straight edge rested on the nut in front and almost touched the last fret before resting on the back end of the tailpiece

    The truss rod is not engaged


    Also since i removed so much material from the original tailpiece i made this from a piece of ash, to mount from within the guitar

    I know its thick (9mm) but is it way too thick to use under the tailpiece?

  10. #10
    Test fitting some strings, dont mind the nuts and bolts, its just to hold the support piece in place



    I can deepen the peg holes to get a bit more of a string angle, the two strings you see are tuned up and the action is very low, that'll be a different story with 10 more strings tuned in place - but i think i have a solution to mitigate the bulging of the top (not the JLD Bridge Doctor as Simon Barden greatly suggested, but it gave me an idea, i will do a mock-up and see what you think

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •