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Thread: AG-1 perhaps i am Tony Iommi?

  1. #81
    Member ross.pearson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Barden View Post
    It won't be the Epiphone tuners, it will almost certainly be the nut. If you haven't got nut files, I'd really recommend you get some. Certainly a reasonable investment, but having a properly cut nut, along with a good set-up can turn a so-so guitar into one that plays and stays in tune. Plus you can then set up all your guitars better, and charge a small fee to set up your friends' guitars as well to help recoup some of the outlay.
    Eh, it needs a new nut anyway due to an injury, so I'll likely spring for that anyway. Will need to be black to match the hardware though. I doubt it's the nut though, it's been my beater for ~20 years and is dropping almost a semi tone between plays, so I'm pretty sure the tuners have finally let go. I had it strung up with really heavy guage for a long time and left it sitting for a few years when the kids came along..

  2. #82
    GAStronomist Simon Barden's Avatar
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    Unless they are really, really rattly, tuners rarely allow any slip. I've had one set of tuners (on a min 1940s Regal parlour), where the tuners were so bad through wear they had to be replaced.

    Slippage that bad is often a sign of the strings unwinding at the ball ends. This is quite a common occurrence on the top two plain strings, less so on the wound strings. Though sometimes the wrap or wound strings can sometimes lose its grip on the inner core and cause issues.

  3. #83
    Overlord of Music McCreed's Avatar
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    Simon already beat me to it, but I will add to it any way. There is a broad misconception that "cheap" tuners "slip" and cause poor tuning stability. Simon quite adequately listed the most common actual causes for tuning issues, so I won't repeat that.

    IMO the biggest issues with cheap tuners are the machining tolerances, particularly with the internals.
    Their rotation can be less smooth and "feel" looser and the turning ratio is generally higher (like 18:1).

    I can't give you an actual figure, but the amount of tension it would require to turn even a cheap kit tuner backwards (so-called slipping) by pulling the string, I reckon the string would break or fail before the string post would move.
    Making the world a better place; one guitar at a time...

  4. Liked by: OliSam

  5. #84
    Mentor OliSam's Avatar
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    Thanks Simon and McCreed !

    So it is the machining tolerance that creates a poor feel that in turn leads to the feeling / idea that they are no good.

    That makes sense.

    Ive found that with my older guitars that have kit tuners on them - the tuners get stiff and clunky with age but the fancier/more expensive tuners dont have that problem.
    So that is to do with quality of machining on the internal gears?


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  6. #85
    Member ross.pearson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Barden View Post
    Unless they are really, really rattly, tuners rarely allow any slip. I've had one set of tuners (on a min 1940s Regal parlour), where the tuners were so bad through wear they had to be replaced.

    Slippage that bad is often a sign of the strings unwinding at the ball ends. This is quite a common occurrence on the top two plain strings, less so on the wound strings. Though sometimes the wrap or wound strings can sometimes lose its grip on the inner core and cause issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by OliSam View Post
    Thanks Simon and McCreed !

    So it is the machining tolerance that creates a poor feel that in turn leads to the feeling / idea that they are no good.

    That makes sense.

    Ive found that with my older guitars that have kit tuners on them - the tuners get stiff and clunky with age but the fancier/more expensive tuners dont have that problem.
    So that is to do with quality of machining on the internal gears?
    OliSam, sorry about derailing your thread somewhat!

    Simon, yeah you're right. The turning action on these tuners is still great, so not that I guess. I checked the tuning first thing this morning and it's a couple of cents over on every string almost uniformally, so I'm going to blame the humidity and temperature changes in this terribly non-insulated room we're living in. I'll do a string change at some point, even though these aren't even 12 months old yet! Practically brand new!

  7. #86
    Mentor OliSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross.pearson View Post
    OliSam, sorry about derailing your thread somewhat!
    No problemo man!


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  8. #87
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    I have a AGB-30 kit I am building and the tuners are of a open gear type and were less than ideal. It isn't so much the tolerances, even though it plays a part but rather the quality of the materials used in the production of said part. What has happened to me on more than one occasion is the material and process used to make the part is why they fail. The tuners on my kit were cast rather than machined as by the seam line down both sides of the worm that turned the worm gear and the fact the chrome used was less than a quality product. Without being in the guitar with any string tension on them they were binding which was caused by the chrome galling from the 2 different parts and the quality of the end mating faces. Instead of the faces being square to the shaft they were tapered and were chewing out the hole and galling when the chrome was being removed from the faces. A quick trip to my lathe and I took minimal material off and squared the ends up, a little bit of lube and they are smooth as silk. With a file, some wet and dry and a Scotch Brite I polished the worm to remove the seam and again some lube and all was fine. Cast parts are always going to give grief due to the material being used as it is normally of a softish and low quality material which allows the chrome to be removed and cause binding in spots as they rotate. I have had sealed units with basically the same and different problems but with a little bit of care they can be bought back to life or just replaced with better quality units if you cant be bothered. I have a small lathe and I am a retired machinist so I have all the time in the world and for me its a bit of fun but there are times I just bin them as I have quite a few spares from previous builds.
    Builds :
    # 1 - Non PBG ES-335
    # 2 - Non PBG Tele Thin line
    # 3 - Non PBG LP
    # 4 - Non PBG SG
    # 5 - RC-1
    # 6 - TL-1
    # 7 - ST-1 Custom
    # 8 - SGB-30 + Non PBG SG
    # 9 - Custom JRM-1DC 12 String
    #10 - Custom ST-1 with P90's
    #11 - Custom TL-1 with 27" Bari Neck
    #12 - Custom JZ-6 Jazzmaster
    #13 - AG-1 Factory Second
    #14 - Custom JZ-6 Bass vi Ordered
    #15 - EX-1R Factory Second

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