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Thread: TL-1HA first build

  1. #31
    Mentor McCreed's Avatar
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    One thing worth noting regarding sandpaper and grades/grit, is there is a difference between what we call 240 and what is called 240 elsewhere (mostly US). A lot woodworking & guitar building info is taken and relayed from US based sites so it can be a bit misleading FLOABW.

    The differences are small but, again worth taking note of IMO. The different measurement standards are commonly ANSI in the US, and FEPA in AUS/EUR. The aggregate grade is more accurately measured in "microns" which seems to be more universal term. If you look at the attached link below, it breaks it all down.

    I mention all this because when I have previously said I have gone to P320 or P400 before staining, I received finger wags of disapproval.

    P400 here, is the equivalent of 320 in the US, and P320 here is slightly coarser than 240 in the US.
    I think the numbers get bandied about easily without knowledge that one is not necessarily the same as the other.

    I've probably explained this in a very convoluted way, but it will make sense when you see the comparison chart.
    Again, probably very minor differences in the big picture, but knowledge is power!

    sandpaper conversion chart
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  2. #32
    GAStronomist wazkelly's Avatar
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    120 grit done as smooth as and then a thorough sand with 180 is far as you need to go if you want to absorb a decent amount of stain. Over done with 240 could be one step too far.
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  3. Liked by: Groovyman32

  4. #33
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    Ah thanks MC - that makes total sense. I was aware there was a difference between the USA vs EUR standards but that clarifies it

  5. #34
    Mentor fender3x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCreed View Post
    One thing worth noting regarding sandpaper and grades/grit, is there is a difference between what we call 240 and what is called 240 elsewhere (mostly US). A lot woodworking & guitar building info is taken and relayed from US based sites so it can be a bit misleading FLOABW.
    Wow! I was blissfully unaware of the differences. I generally go with the product mfg's recommendation on grades of sandpaper to use... but just now realized that on my last couple of projects the paint was EU while the top-coat was US.

    ...and speaking of the mfg's recommendations. The stain I am using has different mfg recommendations for sanding depending on a number of things. All grades given here are ANSI...

    They say down to 220 with open grain, 180 with closed grain woods. You may want to use 320 with endgrain. I used 400 with paulownia which is super open grain, pine or "swamp ash" may be similar.

    It get's weirder if you are using all water based products... My mfg recomended to stain first, then NO sanding until the sealcoat was down. Then 320 or 400 for scuffing between coats.

  6. Liked by: Groovyman32

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fender3x View Post
    Wow! I was blissfully unaware of the differences. I generally go with the product mfg's recommendation on grades of sandpaper to use... but just now realized that on my last couple of projects the paint was EU while the top-coat was US.

    ...and speaking of the mfg's recommendations. The stain I am using has different mfg recommendations for sanding depending on a number of things. All grades given here are ANSI...

    They say down to 220 with open grain, 180 with closed grain woods. You may want to use 320 with endgrain. I used 400 with paulownia which is super open grain, pine or "swamp ash" may be similar.

    It get's weirder if you are using all water based products... My mfg recomended to stain first, then NO sanding until the sealcoat was down. Then 320 or 400 for scuffing between coats.
    Yeah - it's all so complicated! I've decided to start experimenting on scrap to see what happens - I dont have any ash so I'm just using a piece of ply that has some interesting grain to work with. I know that different wood species will have different results - but as I've not done any finishing before I just wanted to try something.

    But yesterday was all about sanding. I used a rand-o sander on the top and back, started with P180 and went to P240. That took all of about 20mins (should it have taken longer?). I then spent the best part of day working the sides by hand. Either I had crappy sandpaper or my technique is rubbish - but I just seemed to go in circles, from something approaching clean looking to a bit of a scratchy mess. But I think I eventually learned to generally move in the direction of the grain, and that end grain is a pain in the arse. But I think I have it something approaching P240 all over and I'm okay with it. It feels smooth "enough" (is it?) so I'm going to use this as a starting point for finish.

    Today I sanded up my ply scrap to 240 and messed about with some grain filler - just to get some experiance mixing and filling. Tomorrow I'll sanding it back and see how what happens. My idea was to see what would happen with neat grain filler (bottom right), a mix of filler and stain (top right) and neat stain (top left) which I could then fill... let's see what happens....

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #36
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    While the grain filler experiment dried I thought I'd have a go at replacing the plastic dot inlays with some black mother of pearl. Originally, I thought the plastic dots were drawn on but I was quickly educated (by you guys in the mod forum) that they are indeed plastic. The graining I could see was sanding marks. Anyway, it was too late, the MOP dots were ordered and when they arrived they looked so nice against the maple, I could not resist trying to put them in.

    This was a scary thought. The only place I had plastic dots to practice on was in the neck - so in otherwords - there was no practice - I just had to get on with it. After a lot of YouTubing and listening to the advice in the mods thread I took the plunge.

    My process:

    First drill a 2mm hole in the plastic dot.
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    Then drive a largish screen into the hole.
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    Using a cloth gently but firmly wiggle the screw until the plastic started to crack. Sometimes after a twist the dot would come out cleanly. But most of the time it would come out in chunks. Often I had to re-drive the screw and wiggle some more. Eventually around half of the plastic came out and that was enough to use the end of the screw to pick at the remaining pieces.

    The trick is not to use the edge of the hole to lever out the pieces - perhaps that's obvious - anyway I managed to forget that on the last hole and slightly marred the board with screw thread. I used some maple saw dust and super glue to fix that.

    Now I had a nice clean hole.
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    Then it was just a case of flooding the bottom of hole with super glue. I used the nozzle of the glue bottle to ensure the glue coated the sides of the hole. But the MOP dots were a nice tight fit. I used a small length of dowel and a hammer to tap them in they were just proud of the surface.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    To make the dots flush I followed the steps in the Pitbull vid. Starting with a flat needle file to remove most of the meat and then P320, P400 and P600 sandpaper until they were flush and shiny.

    I'm really pleased with how this turned out - it could have been a disaster, but I think all the advice I received in the other thread and the YT vids really made it quite straight forward. Like most things - not rushing and taking plenty of time is the key.

    One thing you can see in the vid - either my crappo sandpaper or the MOP dust has made the grain in the maple quite dirty. I've tried cleaning the board with a first a damp cloth, then some tack cloth followed by white spirit - but nothing seems to shift it very well. I also tried some P600 sandpaper and that helped a little but not perfect. If anyone has some ideas on how to get this out, I'd be grateful!

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    Last edited by Groovyman32; Yesterday at 04:14 AM.

  9. #37
    Mentor McCreed's Avatar
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    Wow! I was blissfully unaware of the differences. I generally go with the product mfg's recommendation on grades of sandpaper to use... but just now realized that on my last couple of projects the paint was EU while the top-coat was US.
    Probably didn't/doesn't make a big difference in your scenario, but I thought "not all sandpaper is created equal" was a message worth getting out there. It was probably motivated to some degree by self defence also .

    @Groovyman32 - It's good to see someone bravely take risks on their first build. Nice work!
    Making the world a better place; one guitar at a time...

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCreed View Post
    Probably didn't/doesn't make a big difference in your scenario, but I thought "not all sandpaper is created equal" was a message worth getting out there. It was probably motivated to some degree by self defence also .
    May be a sticky thread somewhere prominent with this info might useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by McCreed View Post
    @Groovyman32 - It's good to see someone bravely take risks on their first build. Nice work!
    Or stupid maybe?

    Thanks, I figured that the worst that could happen was I'd be down £40 for a new neck. I think my biggest fear is over confidence - with each successful high risk maneuver the next one is exponentially more likely to fail!

  11. #39
    GAStronomist FrankenWashie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groovyman32 View Post

    Or stupid maybe?

    Thanks, I figured that the worst that could happen was I'd be down £40 for a new neck. I think my biggest fear is over confidence - with each successful high risk maneuver the next one is exponentially more likely to fail!
    Congratulations that’s a great result on your first Build! Those inlays look the business on that clean maple board don’t they?
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