ES-335 12String Stop Bar advice

[fender3x]

I'm not familiar with these hollow body guitars, so just brain storming.

But could a big hole be drilled through the back to allow enough access to place a block next to the centre block? This way the veneer front may be saved. If the added block was tappered there may not be a gap.

Or a hole in the side (plug socket size) to allow access to glue and screw the added block onto the centre block?

Just thoughts!

I thought about that, but I actually liked the sort of natural grain pretty well. In my case, only the top is finished solid. The back and sides are finished natural. But that's just me. It could work if you wanted to have the back be a solid color. But I think it would be a lot harder. You would need to drill all the way to the top without going through, and then you'd have to figure out how to to get the plug to match the curve of the top. Going in from the top you only have to get the plug a little deeper than the post.

Again, in my case, the veneer was doomed anyway. These are really cool kits, but my two main beefs with them are that the veneer is too thin, and the center block is too narrow. 12mm more on the center block would make it much stronger laterally, and allow more bridge choices. And I would MUCH prefer to have the back veneer on both the front and back (like the old Gibsons actually had) rather than the flame maple tops that get damaged if you breath on them too hard.

[fender3x]

Thanks Fender,
Sounds like your correct that my issue is like your first 335.
The left hole is mostly in the centre block, if it were a clock the gap would be between 8 & 10, so still has good coverage for where the force is mostly going to apply.
Good tip about a dry fit, I had not thought of that. I will check and hope that there is more wackiness to deal with.

If good I think I will give the titebond block a go. I would hate to loose the flametop because of hip replacement surgery.
A few more tings to plan line up and move forward.

Again Cheers to all.

I think "plan C" could work for the bridge. I would still consider a trapeze (like a Rickenbacker 12) or string-through rather than a stop tailpiece. I have seen one or two Gibson ES-335 12 strings...but only with trapeze tailpieces. I saw a calculation that suggested that in standard tuning a Guitar has string tension of about 129 lbs, where as 12 string would be closer to 245 lbs. That's higher than even a typical bass.

[Simon Barden]

the main thing you want the patch to do is to stop the post falling out of the side, there shouldn't be an amazing load on the fixup.

I really can't believe you said that, given all the fuss you made about securing the bridge on the ESB-4!

If this really is a stop bar hole, then there is a hell of a lot of force on the stop bar pulling forwards.

As fender3x said, it's more than a on bass. Using D'addario figures, for a set of their NYXL 45-100s bass strings, you have 72kg of tension. For a 6-string with 10-46s you've got much less at 46.5kg. But for a 12-string set of 10-46s, you've got 104.7kg of tension (that's 152, 102 and 231lbs respectively).

9s or even 8s would be less (D'Addario don't do electric 12s in less than 10s and other manufacturers tensions are much harder to find or are unavailable) but still require a lot of tension.

For minimum disruption I'd go with Jim's method, but if you feel inclined to try fender3x's method D, I'd do it from the back as Trevor Davies said, not the top. You won't normally see the back of the guitar in use, but you will see the front (and so will others), so if you want to make the most of the veneer flame, then the back would be the way to do it. I'd be tempted to drill though from the top in a couple of places, through the post hole and along the line of the block so you know where the edge is.

I'd then cut out a rectangular hole, fit a similar-sized block of a strong hardwood (like maple) into the hole so that it fills it the gap completely (but sticks out the top of the hole) and then it can be clamped in place from the top and bottom of the guitar. Because it will be very hard to apply sideways clamping force, I really would go for Jim's epoxy over Titebond.

Once set, you can then plane/file/sand the protruding part of the block down so that it follows the contours of the back, then I'd prime and paint the back and sides a solid colour.

The centre block wood used in the kits is very light and doesn't really have much strength, normally something like paulownia (and I have no idea why they use it except it will be cheap and out of sight), so whilst most of the force from the posts will be fore and aft, it really needs the support from the sides to stop the wood from being crushed under pressure, grip being lost and the post being pulled out.

An even cruder method would be to find some longer 12mm dia. post inserts, then drill some 8mm holes through to the back, positioned in the centre of the post holes, and use a couple of 8mm round-headed bolts and washers with single slot or cross-head slots (not a hex-head bolt) , of the right length to screw into maybe 5mm of the lower part of the bushing, so that the inserts are securely held in place from the back. They shouldn't go anywhere then.

[fender3x]

It may be partly my lack of skill that is making me suggest this, but if it were me, I would probably try A or B first, and only go to one of the other approaches if that failed.

I am sure that the epoxy bond is stronger, than the "method B" approach that I used. but my first ES 335 bass has about three years on it and my 2nd has about 1. Both are still going strong, so I have some reason to believe the Finger pressure for 20 min is sufficient. It's also relatively easy.

I would save "method D" as a last resort. UNLESS you have given up on a clear finish for the top. The nice thing about "method D" is that it can be done no matter what other approach has failed before it. If you look at the pics I put up above, you'll see that there are quite a number of holes that needed to be patched. These are from approaches I tried that did not work.

Personally, I would not go in from the bottom doing "Model D," unless you are using some gap-filling method like JimC suggests. I considered using polyurethane adhesive that expands to fill gaps, but rejected it since it flexes. This is good many kinds of construction, but not so good in something that is designed to be rigid, like a guitar bridge. My experience with the kind of construction JimC and Simon are talking about is something I haven't done since I was in my 20s. I trust that he and Simon with their knowledge of boat building know what they are talking about and will have better advice than I.

I think Simon's approach could work, but I also think it would be harder. You'd have to shape the surface on the top of the piece so that it is flush against the curved surface. You'd probably want to make it rectangular as Simon suggests to fit flush against the center block. That would mean cutting a rectangular hole in the bottom after locating the exact side of the center block. Then you'd need some sort of gap filling adhesive since you would not be able to clamp from the side. It also won't work if you try model B first, so you'd need to decide in advance to do it. The bottom-up approach would still work with a round peg approach, even if you tried model B first, but you have the problem of getting the top of the peg shaped to be flush with the top--unless you top it with JimC's slurry.

By contrast going in from the top with a round peg eliminates the shape problem and the clamping problem. The most important thing is to get a round piece of wood that fits snuggly in the hole the Forstner bit creates. You want it to fit like a dowel. I used something like a drill press, so that the hole went in straight without wobbling. The Forstner bit makes a flat bottom, so one end of the peg needs to be flat. Coat the peg and hole surfaces with Titebond and tap the peg into place gently with a rubber mallet.

I worried when I tapped the peg into place that it might dislodge the piece I had glued to the side of the center block, but I checked it with an endoscope and it was fine. The nice thing about the round hole is that since there is a tight fit it does not require clamping.

Once the glue has completely dried. it can be cut and sanded to the proper shape.

I will say that Simon, JimC, TCG, Gavin Turner and a few others have been able to get great results out of those delicate flame maple tops. Comparatively, however, it is much easier for *me* to get good results out of the back and sides. Simon and Trevor are right that if you must damage one, you look at the back a lot less often. Good advice, although for me, as I said, I really liked the look of the back and was not going to be able to do clear on the front anyway.


BTW, the more I learn about Paulownia the more it makes sense as a center block. I actually looked for a kit body for my second ES335 type bass because I wanted a Paulownia core, primarily because of the weight savings. I am guessing that Simon is right that it's cheap and easy for the Chinese to get. But it has some other good qualities too, though. It's been used in musical instruments for hundreds of years in Asia and is considered a good tone wood there. It is quite soft, but it has good crush and rupture strength. It's also easy to work and takes glues well. Plus it's the main reason a my kit ES335 bass is about a kilo lighter than a Gibson Memphis Bass. The plywood top and back compensate for Paulownia's lack of hardness....All in all, not a bad wood for the center block. I just wish they'd made it a little wider ;-)

[Stomp70]

Thanks for the thoughts Trevor, however, saving the flame maple front and back without adding more invasive options is what I'm trying to do.
Upon further measurements (thanks to Fender3x for jogging my brain) it seems that the left post hole has been drilled wide of where it should be. If it had been correct, then I wouldn't have this issue.
It's about 5mm out but enough that the tailpiece would not have sat down correctly.

So my plan is to titebond an addition to the side of the centre block for additional support, then plug the current post hole with mahogany or fill with epoxy resin and veneer flush with the surface and re-drill in the correct position. The fill should mostly if not completely be covered by the tailpiece, hopefully hiding the drama.

As to it's strength let alone tone, I guess we will see and hear once it's done.

Then again as long as I'm filling that hole, might as well fill both and inlay some Tassie Blackwood (so it looks on purpose), then add the trapeeze.

[fender3x]

Sounds like a plan to me.

[JimC]

If the correct position for the hole is on the centreblock do you need to bother with all the hassle of gluing a piece on the side of the centreblock? Seems to me that simply plugging the hole and redrilling is going to be plenty good enough, and with getting a piece glued on the side of the centre block being high risk for glue spills and blood pressure, not to mention exceedingly hard to do, I wonder if it's worth it.

[Simon Barden]

If the correct position for the hole is on the centreblock do you need to bother with all the hassle of gluing a piece on the side of the centreblock? Seems to me that simply plugging the hole and redrilling is going to be plenty good enough, and with getting a piece glued on the side of the centre block being high risk for glue spills and blood pressure, not to mention exceedingly hard to do, I wonder if it's worth it.

Not at all sure where you're coming from there, Jim. The way you describe it, you have a hole that you then fill with dowel, and then you drill all the dowel out again. So you end up with the same hole. And the hole still breaches the side of the centre block.

[JimC]

Not at all sure where you're coming from there, Jim. The way you describe it, you have a hole that you then fill with dowel, and then you drill all the dowel out again. So you end up with the same hole. And the hole still breaches the side of the centre block.

I was understanding him as saying that the current hole is out of position [FX:voice off:no, really?] and that the correct position would be wholly within the centreblock. So fill the hole and then drill in the revised position, which will be entirely within the repaired centreblock. But of course I may have misunderstood.

[fender3x]

It all comes down to how things align with the center block, and how aligned the center block is to begin with.

On my first ES, the bridge holes lined up just fine with the neck, but since the neck slot was cut at a slight angle the South hole was not fully on the center block.*

I also discovered that the center block was not have been perfectly aligned to begin with. I tried to measure mine going in through the top of the f-hole, and discovered that the North f-hole was 14 mm from the center block, but the South f-hole was 17 mm from the center block. Assuming the block was straight, that meant it was 99mm wide, and off center by 3mm.

Post hole centers in an Asian TOM bridge are at about 74mm. Post Ferrules are at about 12 mm in diameter... So the outside edge of the post holes should be at about 86mm.

So if everything is perfectly aligned, figure around 6mm of wood on the outside of the post holes...+/- 3-4 mm because alignment may not be perfect. There is not a lot of margin of error, which is why I continue to think the center block in these is a few mm too narrow.

A couple of things that I found by trial and error. I did not have a problem with the ferule pushing in too far into the top due to pressure from the strings, even when almost half the ferrule was not on the center block, but there were two other problems. The bottom of the ferrule would try cant outward at the bottom, and there wasn't enough wood holding the ferule to keep it from twisting in the hole. Gluing a piece of wood onto the side of the center block solved both problems.

If when you drill the new hole it is fully over the center block, then as Jim says, you may not need the piece glued on the side. But if the hole is off or very close to the, edge gluing on a piece of wood can't hurt IMHO. I tried to get my measurements as precise as possible and add a few mm for safety. Ultimately though, it's very difficult to know exactly where the center block ends at the place where you need to put the bridge.


* I had a similar problem on the second one. The neck was not out of alignment, but the South post hole was so close to the edge of the center block, that the ferrule broke out on when I pushed it in to dry fit the bridge.