Guitar made from concrete.

[JimC]

principles of electromagnetic induction are pretty simple. The vibrating steel strings in the magnetic field of the pickups induce a current in the windings..

Of course none of that is wrong... When I learned, however, from amplifier designers that the design of the speaker cabinet has an effect on the behaviour of the output stage of the amplifier I started to realise that music amplification was an awful lot more complicated than I thought. The question boils down to whether the vibration patterns of the body have an audible effect on the vibrations of the strings, and how great that is.
The apparent existence of the phenomenon of bass guitar neck dead spots, for example, suggests there is some audible effect in some circumstances, but I haven't come across anything to actually put numbers on.
Maybe I should make an instrument with interchangeable bodies and try doing some tests.

[Sonic Mountain]

Well sure, the amps construction is very important for getting the best out of the speaker, but they are constructed out of ply/craftwood/particle board etc. There (AFAIK) isn't a whole lot of discussion regarding the use of 'tonewood' in Amp construction, given the larger amount of vibrations you'd think perhaps it'd be more important there?

I completely agree it's a complicated discussion and there are a lot of variables. But you are right, excluding all other things, the fundamental question is - "Does the vibration of the body generate any kind of signal or contribute to or affect the way the signal is generated by the pickups?" and the follow up is "Are some woods/materials better than others?"

I will allow that there maybe some very, very small permutations in vibration caused by the body vibrating the nut/bridge and in turn the strings. But it is my very strong feeling that any effect would be extremely negligible weighed up with all other contributing factors. Certainly no where near what is claimed by 'tone wood' proponents.

It's clear from all of the various guitars build out of weird materials (such as the one that kicked off this discussion) that you can build them out of just about anything and they can still sound amazing. Especially when well played, with high quality electrics and amplification.

Nice wood is nice to hold and look at, and there is no doubt that the 'feel' of the guitar in your hands can be greatly affected by what it's made from and how it's finished. I think a lot of that, as well as the definite qualities wood imparts on acoustic guitars, combined with a lot of marketing and traditionalism, is why this argument endures in guitar circles.

It would be very interesting to do some controlled tests with everything being equal and bodies swapped, but also quite the undertaking and the methodology would have to be very tight as people will point to any discrepancies as flaws in the over all experiment.

Until I see some rigorous research to conclusively refutes my stance, I'm sticking to my view that it's mostly marketing and mythology, based on what I understand of physics and electronics.

[king casey]

is why this argument endures in guitar circles.

It isn't just guitars. I see the same nonsense getting regularly played out in woodwind forums.
Various 'blind' tests have been carried out comparing (e.g.) cheap Taiwanese instruments against expensive French ones.
It just sticks in the craw when you've spent thousands on that collector's item and it can't be clearly identified in a blind test.

At the end of the day, the only defining factor is that decal that's pasted on the headstock.


cheers, Mark.

[JimC]

If you want to boggle your mind, think seriously about what happens when you hit a string. Does it stretch and un stretch on each cycle? Does the bridge move up and down or back and forth? Does the neck fractionally bend and straighten? We are taught this simplistic model that the string moves with static nodes, and the bridge and nut are obviously end nodes so cannot be moving. So how does the vibration get in the body?

[fender3x]

I think my mind is plenty boggled already. And then I realized something. Jimmy Vaughn has Fender Coronado II that is almost the same as mine but sounds way better. I realized that deep down I know that the difference between the way his and mine sound is more related to Jimmy Vaughn than is to differences in the hardware.

I don't think there will be much research done on this other than what people have already done A-B'ing various setups with a scope on YouTube. That has not seemed to convince many people.

There are some differences not related to pickups, cap and pot values or setup that are real and measureable. The real question is whether anything else has a meaningful effect on the sound. If you can't hear the difference--or even if you are just not sure whether you hear the difference--or if you ARE sure, but the difference is very slight-- what difference does it really make?

Whatever the difference it cannot be worth what that concrete guitar is going to do to someone's back.

[king casey]

There are some differences not related to pickups, cap and pot values or setup that are real and measureable.

You would also have to consider different people's hearing capabilities.
Different bone structure (density) and issues due to aging (i.e. Tinnitus etc).

So many variables out of your control.

My suggestion....just put the can-opener away.

cheers, Mark.

[fender3x]

So many variables out of your control.

You left out neurology. You hear with your ears, but you listen with your brain. Part of what makes A-B testing so tricky is that what you hear is affected by what you are listening for.

[king casey]

You left out neurology. You hear with your ears, but you listen with your brain. Part of what makes A-B testing so tricky is that what you hear is affected by what you are listening for.

Yes however it could be included in 'variables' such as various degrees of dementia etc..

cheers, Mark.

[fender3x]

Yes however it could be included in 'variables' such as various degrees of dementia etc..

cheers, Mark.

I just had this mental picture of an old guy listening to "B" and saying "OK, I'm ready for the other one."