What goes between water based stain and water based lacquer?

[ThatCluelessGerman]

Hi folks,

me again, asking stupid questions =)

I just wonder.. I stained my guitar with water based wood stains. If I now add water based lacquer (a poly type), what do I have to add in between to prevent the lacquer pulling off or moving the stain?

I tried shellac and nitrocellulose sanding sealing, but both of them pull off too much stain. Any advice?

Thank you!

[Simon Barden]

Any stain will come off a bit when any solvent, be it water or alcohol or oil is applied. The solvent is only there to get the dye pigments into the wood. Once the solvent has evaporated, the pigments are fairly free to move around if another solvent comes along. It's just that alcohol/spirit stains tend to penetrate the wood a bit more, so are less likely you spread as much. The trick is to get the first application (or two) on quickly and don't worry too much about smoothing it out, as long as it covers the surface. Once you get a good layer or two on, the stain is sealed in.

Some people apply the first coat of finish with a brush. If you have a stained burst, then always brush outwards from the lighter to the darker shades.

With a single colour stain, even wiping on Tru-Oil shouldn't be a problem (I've only done it once but it worked OK for me).

Otherwise, a spray can for your first coats are the best solution, so there's no physical movement of any stain absorbed by the finish.

If they aren't stains designed for use for wood, then that may make things worse.

[ThatCluelessGerman]

Thanks Simon.

I used wood stain from the hardware store. It's water based and it worked really well with tru oil on my first guitar. But the other one (the blackish grey horror kit one) was a looot work to get it to a passable state and it would be a pity if the lacquer pulled off any colour. That's why I tried using a sealer in between, but so far, their solvents pulled off a lot of stain, so I may just try the poly without anything in between. Will get new test wood first

[Simon Barden]

That's about the only way to be sure. There's nothing perfect in this world, especially in guitar building!

[Joe Garfield]

I haven't done a guitar yet, but I've done a TON of samples over the past 8 weeks while waiting for my kits to arrive. I've tried several products and combinations, and learned pretty much what Simon just said

You can use a spray-based sealer between stain and top coat. I've been using Watco Lacquer Spray (which is nitro based) and it's really an awesome product - sprays incredibly easy and wide, little to no touch-ups required, dries fast, and works with most top coats (you need to check compatibility with whatever top coat you're using.)

1) Brushing or wiping water based sealer over water based stain is bad - too much stain interaction/movement.
2) Lightly wiping oil based sealer (or true oil) over water based stain is possible, but the applicator still picks up color so need to change frequently.
3) Applying 2-3 light coats of spray can sealer seals the stain enough that I can hand apply a top coat in thin coats without much trouble. If the top coat goes on too wet it still will pull up stain.

All of the basic lacquer/poly sealers are some proportion of solids to carriers (liquid). Ballpark 10-20% solid, 80-90% liquid. They're wet when you apply, and the carrier evaporates leaving behind the solids. So realize that whatever product you put down is going down as 80-90% liquid which is what causes interaction with the stain. This is to illustrate the importance of using light coats.

True Oil is probably a little different. My guess there is that oil doesn't mix with water as easily as solvents or water-based top coats, so you can get away with it if you use very light coats at first. I was successfully able to wipe on layers of True Oil over water based stain, but the small sample took a lot of care and attention to prevent stain interaction so it's not what I'll use on anything I've stained with water based.

[phrozin]

What kit do you have is it mahogany, basswood, ash, maple if you have basswood or maple you don't need grain filler