Dye Vs Stain Finish

[cade711]

Hey guys,
I've been browsing a lot of threads for peoples experiments using various dyes/stains/paints but I'm hoping for some clarity if anyone can assist. (Bear with me through the spiel)

I'm already mid way through finishing my JB-4 with the Dingotone Bushfire Sunrise kit and it's great. Easy to use and ripper look, very happy with that.

I have a second project kit to start though and want to finish it in a variation of deep blue, brighter teal and possibly some holo/glitter effect. Not as a burst, more so in abstract shapes (aiming for something a bit artsy) Currently I haven't seen this look achieved with the DT blue color palette.

I have some powered dye pigment in the colors I'd like, which is intended to be blended as a water based product (but I'm assuming metho would work also?). I've done test runs on sample wood with water and it stains well enough, plus is intended for durable colorfast use.

My questions (finally!) are:
If i use the water based dye on the unfinished wood to color, would I just be able to apply Tru-oil coats over this to finish without any other base needed.

Or secondly (and this question might see me get strung up alongside my drying guitar for messing with DT)

If I had the clear color Dingotone Kit, could I add my pigment powder to the base coat to create the vibrant color I wanted, then intensify and finish as normal?

Thanks, I await feedback or slaps on the wrist accordingly!

[Andy40]

Hey Cade,

Tru oil will go over water based dye easy. the first few coats will soak into the wood before starting to make a good finish. Tru oil ambers things up a bit though.

I've seen some brilliant finished in Green and blues with Ubeaut dyes on this forum.

Not sure about adding pigment to DT, you would have to ask the man himself. You dont get a lot in a bottle for trial and error testing though.

The other think you could do is order a DT custom colour. I've done it and it was awesome.

Good luck mate

[cade711]

Thanks Andy, I did look into the ubeaut there's some nice bold colors. Just thought I'd try using this craft wood pigment I had for ease. I might buy the DT clear kit and see how that applies over the top of dye as a tester

[dave.king1]

This interest is of interest to me too because I need a very small amount of red to complete the Cooloongatta Gold - Black Stump transition on the Tuff Dog.

Not started yet so don't get too excited, I need to get the bridge sorted first

[Simon Barden]

Just about anything will go over a stain finish, but as DT contains oils and waxes, there are a lot of finishes that won't sit well on top of it (though I'm sure TruOil has been used by others here on top of DT.

The only warning against water-based stains is on veneer tops, where the thinness of the veneer means that if used very wet (and most pre-mixed stains are mostly water) the water can penetrate the veneer enough to affect the glue and you can get the veneer lifting and bubbling. Not an issue with solid tops or maple caps etc, and videos of stains normally show a very wet application. But water based stains on thin veneers are best used with multiple applications, each one as dry as possible. If possible it's safest to use a metho or turps based stain. The concentrated stains (like the StewMac ColorTone range) can normally be used with any thinner - water, metho, turps etc.

[cade711]

Thanks Simon, going to be working with a white poplar solid body, no veneer so shouldn't have concerns with the water based dye in that regard. Just trying to identify the best recommendations for getting a solid and glossy top finish over the color dye seeing as I've only tried the DT stain process so far and lack experience with wood finishing of other types.

[wazkelly]

Hi mate, do you have any clear DT top coat that you could spare a few drops from for an experiment?

Suggest you get a few small containers (check out the plastic container aisle at woolies for some that are in packs of 8 for a couple of bucks) and start adding a few different combinations in each, one at a time, and record what the mixture was as you go and then paint some test strips. Check on them after 24 hours to see how things turned out as this will give you an indication of what you can get away with.

DT clear top coat should go over a dye or pigment but you would need to let the base stain dry and cure for quite a bit and then apply an initial saturated coat, probably with a brush to avoid picking up the pigment in the clear as would most likely happen if you chose to rag it on as per the usual DT method.

Andy is right in that TO does add a very slight amber tint which can turn blues a bit greenish. Same deal with it being brushed on as a first coat too otherwise things can end up messy.

[cade711]

Hi Waz, yep I was thinking that the dye might get picked up in the clear coats and spead somewhat which is a concern. That's why I thought just mixing the pigment dye straight into a clear coat and applying it together might pay off.
I don't have a great amount of DT finish currently, but definitely thinking I'll buy DT colorless and T.O to run the type of tests you mention, could start to add up though but it still beats wrecking a finish on the guitar.

Any idea if the colorless DT sets clearer than tru oil or is it likely same story? Or poly even?

[wazkelly]

Hi Cade, on builds 1 & 2 used DT but chickened out with the top coat clear as I was having too many dramas and switched to Tru Oil to finish them off. On builds 3 & 4 was where I did all the experimentation with inks & dyes and the Red J Bass being the best finish out of all 4 builds which was achieved through the method mentioned earlier. Tried tinting TO but unless the ink or dye was of the same properties, which is oil based for Tru Oil, it did not work so ended up doing the initial 2 TO top coats with a brush and then ragged on the rest from there. Even with a brush it picked up a small amount of base colour but thankfully did not want to spread things around as once water based stuff reacts with TO it forms as droplets suspended in the finish. Not a pretty sight to behold.

On the website for DT the colour samples tend to look clear. Might be a good idea to check Zandit's Spalted LP as I think he may have done that in colourless?

[cade711]

I did read your bass thread and saw the sampling there. Brilliant finish mate.
I'd be leaving at least a week between coats for dry time so hopefully that relieves some dye lifting drama.
Essentially, test, test again, retest and confirm with multiple products. I'll update how they all go.