Can no longer put this off...

I have reached the stage in the current build where I have to do the finish; my least favorite of all the build activities.

I am hoping for advice, and trying to remember the Einstein adage "Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler."

So here are my questions for finishing an ES style body. My idea is to do a solid color top (lots has been filled in...veneer is not salvageable). I thought I would do natural sides and back where the veneer looks pretty good, although the back will need a little fill right up against the binding in a couple of tiny places.

So the more I read the more I get confused. I don't have any great preference about how I want it to come out. I'd just like it to look presentable.

It's summer in Florida where I live, which means hot and humid, and I will be working outside. I can't avoid rattle cans for the solid color, but would like to avoid them for as much as possible.

I have heard that I can seal and grain-fill with Tru Oil. I have also heard that I should seal and fill first before using any finish. I am also not sure how to do the sanding. So many different approaches on youtube!

So I am really interested in what folks think is the best way to do this for someone in a hot, humid area with no spray gear...

What is the order and grit of

Sanding
Sealing
Filling
Painting
Clearcoating

Products?

I own a bit of Tru Oil but am not married to its use if there is something better, though I have done enough testing with it to know that the three different spraypaints I have tried (Rustoleum Painter's touch 2x, MTN 94 [acrylic] and MTN Black [Nitro]) will stick to an undercoat of TO and a clear coat of TO sticks to these paints.

I have used auto paint (Duplicolor) in the past with it's primer and won't do that again. It chipped easily and did not even stick well to its own primer... Used a Duplicolor clear coat with it. Took forever to cure.

Would be happy to be pointed to any good sites, tubes or threads ;-)

I think you have a similar summer to ours in Brisbane. hot and humid.

You can't tru oil over paint.

My preference for dyes is to use tru oil as a finish. If you can't save the veneer, would a super dark stain cover up blemishes? If yes, then stain and tru oil. Tru oil does not care about the heat or humidity. if not I guess paint is the go.

When it comes to paint I prefer duplicolour (sorry) because its acrylic. I've painted guitars in enamel and it reacts poorly with guitar stands and hangers for months sometimes years. I also did not think that the enamel paints were more durable at all.

I wouldn't seal with Tru oil, I prefer to use waterbased sealers or normal brush on sanding sealer first. as its semi-hollow it will be ply so not much sealer needed.

Anyway, thats my 2c, hope that helps.

Thanks for the response, Andy. I may use the Tru Oil on the parts of the body that are finishing natural.

As for the top, it will need a solid color. It has a bunch of plugs, and sanding through the veneer in places. Does not take much to damage the veneer on these things, and I have done much more than what is necessary to damage it...

It's funny that everyone says you can't use TO over paint. It's hard to find reports of anyone trying it though. I know that people use it over small painted areas and over decals, so I asked Birchwood Casey. The response I got back from them was literally "We don’t know if using Tru-Oil over paint would work. No one here has ever tried it." They went on to say that it is not compatible with "oily" products and warned that using it with something oil-based could result in the paint never drying. The end of their message was "If you do end up experimenting with it, feel free to share your findings with us."

So I did an experiment. I finished a piece of plywood with Duplicolor metal flake. Then put a few coats of TO over it. It dried hard, and still looks good a couple of years later. Frankly I wish I had used it instead of the Duplicolor clear coat that I ended up using. That stuff took months to cure and does not feel as good to the touch even now.

A few months ago I put it over MTN 94 spray paint that is acrylic, MTN Black which is nitro and Rustoleum Painter's Choice 2x which, I think, is enamel. The paints are different (the two MTNs are much thinner and matte). The Rustoleum looks and feels thick and is pretty glossy. I just put one coat of TO over each one. In each case it dried hard, and does not seem to have any problems. So, with the four rattlecan paints I have tried, TO seems to do fine. I don't know that I'll use it, but it's already emerging as a better alternative than some things... The fact that I don't need to spray it and that it does well in humidity.... Both were problems when I shot the clear coat on my last project. I got cloudiness and fisheyes quite a bit. I am sure part of that is that I am just not very good at spraying...

re: Sealer

When it doubt, shellac it! Shellac (un-waxed) is *the* most compatible sealer I've ever used.
It has great adhesion to everything I've ever put on top of it and is cheap as chips (if you mix your own).
You can buy Zinsser Bullseye Shellac in a spray can if you prefer spraying.

The Zinsser rattle cans are easy to find and pretty cheap in the US, but not so here so I prefer buying shellac flakes and mixing my own. I also prefer just wiping it on. It dries really quickly and can be used to grain fill the timber in the right conditions.

IMO, best sealer EVER :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McCreed

It dries really quickly and can be used to grain fill the timber in the right conditions.

IMO, best sealer EVER :)

---

So do you actually use it as grain filler as well? I don't know that I need much. I am guessing the back and sides are basswood on the ES body. Does not seem like it will need much filling and sealing. It's plywood like the top, but the top ply is a bit thicker than the top.

Would not have made a difference on this project, because I had to move the bridge and and fill in a number of holes...long story... But if I ever do another ES I am would ask Adam if he can get the top with the same top-ply as the back and sides. On the two ES bodies I have had to play with, the the flame maple veneer is just way to thin and easy to damage for a ham-handed person like myself.

Cool as the flame maple tops are, the old makers did not use it. I suspect there's a reason for that ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fender3x

It's funny that everyone says you can't use TO over paint. It's hard to find reports of anyone trying it though. I know that people use it over small painted areas and over decals, so I asked Birchwood Case

..

---

I did try it once. Silly me. I had finished my guitar in Duplicolour and tried Tru oil. so I put on the coats, then had to wet sand it to get it to flat, the coats just flaked right off in parts. and couldn't stick to the paint. So it wasn't really the application, it was more the wet sanding and polishing that can't be done as the tru oil coats can't grip on to paint very well.

"So do you actually use it as grain filler as well?"

In short, yes. There are a number ways to achieve this (just google it) but basically you apply a coat of shellac, sand flat and repeat multiple times until smooth. Then the final coat(s) of shellac are your sealer and ready for whatever base coat/top coat you want.
There's also various slurry methods...

Slowly but surely I am coming to the idea of using shellac as the sealer top (to be painted) and sides and back (to be finished natural). Also basically have decided to use the acrylic paint. What do you guys like as a wipe-on or brush on clear coat?

If I am doing the back and sides natural with a shellac sealer coat, how should I finish after that? Should I use just go on to do a French polish. I have a Spanish guitar that I *think* has been finished that way. I like the way it looks, and love the way the guitar sounds. Notice that it has worn off where my forearm braces on the lower bout tho... So wondering how it will wear? Should I use Tru Oil? Or use whatever I use on the painted top? What do you think?

A related question is what to do with the neck. I have an aftermarket neck that has a light "satin" finish. No idea what it is, but guessing it's poly. I have had to sand the finish off in a few places and wondering what I should use as a final clear coat. I want it to be a satin finish. Thoughts?

Should be clear by now how completely clueless I am about this...

I have to stop reading...it's just confusing me...

https://www.woodshopnews.com/columns...-all-just-hype

"If I am doing the back and sides natural with a shellac sealer coat, how should I finish after that?"

If you're going to do the top/front with acrylic [lacquer] use a lacquer clear coat over the entire thing. The shellac will accept lacquer really well and you don't have to worry about incompatibility. Also, shellac is too brittle on its own for guitars IMO.

However, just be aware that shellac will add a slight amber tint to the wood and will get darker with the more coats you put on, and it can take at least a few coats to get the colour even because different parts of the timber can "take up" the shellac differently. Also you need enough coats to be able to level it out by sanding but not sanding through.

Personally I like the colour it adds and am going to be doing a maple neck this way soon.

"A related question is what to do with the neck. I have an aftermarket neck that has a light "satin" finish. No idea what it is, but guessing it's poly. I have had to sand the finish off in a few places and wondering what I should use as a final clear coat. I want it to be a satin finish. Thoughts?"

It is probably "poly" but probably not like the polyurethane you'll get at Home Depot. If you've already sanded through some spots, I would suggest sanding it all off at this point. I know it's more work and a PITA, but you'll likely get unequal colouring if you start laying lacquer, Tru Oil, wipe-on poly etc over the existing finish. And, there's potential compatibility and adhesion issues.

Re: satin finish - remember you can make any gloss finish a satin finish by "de-glossing" it with a fine abrasive pad or wet sanding.
And to a certain extent, you can buff a satin finish into a gloss (or at least gloss-y) finish.

[edited for clarity in a couple of spots 07/06/19]

Thanks! I am thinking about using General Finishes High Performance Water Based Topcoat, and could use it on the whole guitar. It is supposed to dry with virtually no yellowing, so maybe a little color would be nice. On the the other hand, the neck is natural, so maybe I want them to match. As Chuck Berry said "Meanwhile, I was still thinking..."

"I am thinking about using General Finishes High Performance Water Based Topcoat"

If you're using acrylic lacquer for your base coat on the front, you may need to re-think that water based top coat.
Mixing solvent based and water based products can end badly.

That said, I know nothing about that brand (never seen it here in AUS). I would recommend talking to someone from General Finishes support and explain what you're doing; and will there be compatibility issues.

I think the mfg says the paint needs to be absolutely dry. It's highly recommended by a number of places including Stew Mac...


Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

I am thinking I will test on a chunk of pine before doing anything else....

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Took another look at the neck. It's really just the front of the headstock where I have damaged the finish. Maybe I'll just paint it the same color as the body. I was going to do some stripes, but it's not a big change to just paint it solid like the top.

The only other place where the finish is damaged is on the where the neck goes into the pocket. I may do a little experimenting so see if I can cover this with something that won't change the appearance much and *will* dry hard. can experiment with the undamaged parts of the headstock... The rest of the neck, actually looks pretty good.

" It's really just the front of the headstock where I have damaged the finish. Maybe I'll just paint it the same color as the body."

Ok, yeah that's less than I imagined. Your plan is totally doable.

"The only other place where the finish is damaged is on the where the neck goes into the pocket."

Is it "inside" the pocket where it is not visible? If so, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Just seal it with shellac.
If it's an exposed area, and not too big, you could probably get away with a spot finish with some wipe-on poly. You should be able to blend it into the existing finish and it's not an area that will subject to friction like the fretboard or carve of the neck so wear is less likely to be an issue.

Keep posting your progress. I feel invested in this project now ;)

On the area around the neck pocket there is a bit of visible area around the top of the pocket. I will try first on a non-visible area. The mfg of the topcoat says it should be fine as long as the existing finish is totally dry...which it is. I don't want to use the shellac on the neck if I don't have to because it's finished super clear.

For sure I will continue posting. I can certainly use the advice!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

I started to put some paint on the headstock today... Starting small.

I got the paint to work OK on a piece of pine through trial and error. Isanded flat with 220. Then sprayed. I sprayed one or two coats then sand.

I hate spray paint. It is summer in Miami which means hot and humid. The paint has a tendency to be a tad gravelly feeling when dry. Also has a tendency to have what looks like a bit of a splatter. The combination of heat and humidity also seem to contribute to another problem. I can't really calibrate the dry time. Sometimes I get a good result sanding after an hour. Other times it beads up like it's not quite ready after two hours.

I am thinking that with the body I may do two coats, wait overnight, sand and repeat. It's opaque after 3 coats. The fourth is just really to have enough buildup not sand through it when flattening with 320

Would welcome advice! Clearly out of my depth.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

"The paint has a tendency to be a tad gravelly feeling when dry. Also has a tendency to have what looks like a bit of a splatter."

As for "gravelly feeling"; I would hazard a guess that you may be holding the spray can too far away from your work surface.
If you're spraying from too far away the paint mist will partially dry before hitting and adhering to the surface and will result in the paint feeling rough or "dusty" (gravelly???)

re: splatter, It could be what's called "orange peel" which will also result from spraying distance, OR, it could actually be "spatter" from a crappy spray can/nozzle. Hard to say without seeing what you're describing. Rattle cans are well known for these kinds of problems.

You want to be spraying from between 6-8 inches (8 max!). The trick is getting a wet coat* that will level but not run. So it's about a balance between spray distance and speed of your passes. It takes time and practice and it's good you doing some on scrap pieces. (I'm still learning and I'm not really a newbie)

*Your first 1 or 2 coats want to be a bit "drier" and *lightly* sanded (just enough to get the nibs down and not sand through) then you want to lay down the wetter coats.

Drying time - Just let it sit until you know it's dry ie: not tacky at all. One of the key things in doing the finish work is knowing when NOT to sand or re-coat. It's not a job for the impatient. Don't ask me how I know this... ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McCreed

"The paint has a tendency to be a tad gravelly feeling when dry. Also has a tendency to have what looks like a bit of a splatter."

As for "gravelly feeling"; I would hazard a guess that you may be holding the spray can too far away from your work surface.
If you're spraying from too far away the paint mist will partially dry before hitting and adhering to the surface and will result in the paint feeling rough or "dusty" (gravelly???)

re: splatter, It could be what's called "orange peel" which will also result from spraying distance, OR, it could actually be "spatter" from a crappy spray can/nozzle. Hard to say without seeing what you're describing. Rattle cans are well known for these kinds of problems.

You want to be spraying from between 6-8 inches (8 max!). The trick is getting a wet coat* that will level but not run. So it's about a balance between spray distance and speed of your passes. It takes time and practice and it's good you doing some on scrap pieces. (I'm still learning and I'm not really a newbie)

*Your first 1 or 2 coats want to be a bit "drier" and *lightly* sanded (just enough to get the nibs down and not sand through) then you want to lay down the wetter coats.

Drying time - Just let it sit until you know it's dry ie: not tacky at all. One of the key things in doing the finish work is knowing when NOT to sand or re-coat. It's not a job for the impatient. Don't ask me how I know this... ;)

---

This is so true, something I learned along the way. Or should I say failed, I was so impatient.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This paint is "low velocity" so I am actually never more than 3-4 inches away. There's definitely some splatter...but it flattens a bit as it dries and seems to sand out easily. Maybe I need to get even closer?

Patience seems to be a major issue here. I re-read the directions. It says it is quick drying. I think I am still figuring out what that means.

The can says it's dry enough after 10-15 min to lay down another thin coat, and that lots of thin coats are better than a thick one...so trying to do that....

The fine print says that it's not completely dry for 24 hours. I am now reading this as "do not sand for at least 24 hours." This is an acrylic spray paint and I have noticed that I can feel a small difference when it is ready to sand. It feels dry but slightly cool from about 30 min after spraying--for hours thereafter. At some point at least 20 hours later it feels room temp. Not a big difference but perceptible. Guessing the difference is either evaporation or paranoia about sanding too soon.

It sands flat pretty easily but is very easy to sand off around edges or places where I missed s little high spot in prep (read that "a small hole filled with a toothpick and sanded".

Put 3-4 thin coats on last night. Waiting another 10 hours until I sand a little again....

Thanks for the advice. Patience is hard.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Made some progress... I think I now have the color on the headstock and it is looking reasonably good. Put on the decal as well so that it would be ready for the top coat.

Next project is the body...once I get the color on top and the back and sides ready, I'll order the top coat.

One semi related question...I sort of built the area up around where the neck bolts on with binding material... But there is one place where it got a little discolored. I am thinking that maybe I can find a shade of nail polish that's close... Any other ideas?

I think what happened is that I sanded the binding a little too deep. I tried to fill with cream colored binding dust (from sanding) and some acetone to make a paste. I think the acetone mixed with a bit of the black binding material that is sandwiched on in with the cream colored binding that goes around the top of the body. All attempts to fix it have failed so far... So now I am looking for a way to hide it rather than fix it. Attachment 31453Attachment 31455

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fender3x

Made some progress... I think I now have the color on the headstock and it is looking reasonably good. Put on the decal as well so that it would be ready for the top coat.

Next project is the body...once I get the color on top and the back and sides ready, I'll order the top coat.

One semi related question...I sort of built the area up around where the neck bolts on with binding material... But there is one place where it got a little discolored. I am thinking that maybe I can find a shade of nail polish that's close... Any other ideas?

I think what happened is that I sanded the binding a little too deep. I tried to fill with cream colored binding dust (from sanding) and some acetone to make a paste. I think the acetone mixed with a bit of the black binding material that is sandwiched on in with the cream colored binding that goes around the top of the body. All attempts to fix it have failed so far... So now I am looking for a way to hide it rather than fix it. Attachment 31453Attachment 31455

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

---

Oh i'm loving the look of that!

Looking good!
I like the two-tone headstock! Not what I was expecting, and the logo decal also looks great too.

As for the binding, whilst it's not perfect, it's not that bad. If it's set up solid and not gooey, I'd just leave it.
Given where it is, I'm sure you are the 1% that would even notice it and that's mainly because you know it's there!

I think any kind of cosmetic cover up, could make it more noticeable. Maybe someone else has a sure-fire method to hide it but IDK.

Attachment 31642 I painted the top. Still planning to do the back and sides natural if I can "Si dios quiere" as we say here in Miami. I know the pic is blurry, but that's how everything looks in my garage ;-) It at least gives an idea what I am going after if you imagine the back and sides done in natural.

This has been an exercise in patience...something I don't have a great deal of. I am discovering that being impatient leads to a need for more patience, however.

I put on six coats. I am hoping this paint works well with my topcoat. This is a water based rattle can paint called MTN 94. I do my painting outdoors, and it is hot and humid here. I have found it to be very difficult to get a good smooth paint cover with any kind of spray paint. This is no exception. I get that sort of "sandpaper" finish or orange peal at least somewhat with every coat. There is also some splatter. I have seen other complaints on the internet about the splatter with this paint, however it turns out not to be much of a problem, as I will note below. Also, the coats seem to melt into each other like a lacquer which is good.

My difficulties in gauging necessary drying time and a few other questions caused me to write to the company. They told me that (a) the paint dries enough to put on another coat in 10-15 minutes. HOWEVER the paint will not be completely dry for about 7 days. On my tests I discovered that I could put on 3-4 coats, but it was a bad idea to sand for at least 24 hours. I put 5 or 6 coats on the body and that (I learned the hard way) slows dry time. Humidity could be a factor as well. It's super humid here right now. So even waiting two days to sand was not completely satisfactory, and in one place, trying to get the finish completely flat, I sanded all the way through.

So those spots got another 4 coats today, and the whole body got at least one more.

Now the good part. The company says sanding with 320 grit is perfect, but I have now dropped to 400. Once the finish is completely dry I can get the finish VERY flat with 400 even in spots where there is splatter or sandpaper feel. If it is not completely dry it tends to ball up and create lumps, but that is my fault for not waiting, not the paint's... If I wait long enough it sands very flat and very easily--better than any paint I have used thus far.

There are at least two other cool things about this paint. I tried it on bare, sanded pine. I used some filler but no sealer or primer. After a week the paint is super hard, and sands beautifully. I asked the company if this was OK. They said it works fine without sealer or primer, but may take more coats to cover. In reality it covers completely in two. I have added the additional coats to have a good amount for sanding. On my test blocks of pine the finish seems darn near bulletproof.

This paint is "low velocity" so you have to hold it close to the work...but I have yet to make it run. Making spray paint run has never been hard for me. I have a great talent for it. This is the first time I have ever used a rattle can to paint without getting a single run. I don't think I have gotten much better at painting so it must be the paint.

The other thing I discovered by accident. The guy I bought the paint from told me to shake long and hard because this paint has a lot of solids. I had to sand back my first coat in places because I found some flaws that needed to be filled. I filled them with acrylic wood filler, and then put on 5 coats. After the first two I could see that the flaws, while better, were still visible. However, after 4 coats they were gone. I put on 5 or 6 altogether. Even when I sanded flat there is no sign of the flaws. In other words, there are enough solids in this stuff to actually do some filling. I have had primer that *said* it could do this...but didn't. This is the first paint I have ever used that could actually fill.

Top coat arrived in the mail today. Hope to experiment a little tomorrow. Both the top coat mfg and the paint mfg told me the same thing... It should work, but I need to make sure that anything I put the top coat on is COMPLETELY dry. We shall see how my patience fares...

Perseverance is the key!
And patience is not a virtue that was bestowed upon me when I was created. Since taking on guitar building, I have had to learn it... and let's say it's still a "work in progress"! However, proof that an old dog can learn new tricks...

How'd you go with melty binding? Were you able to fix it up better, or did you leave it as it was?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McCreed

...However, proof that an old dog can learn new tricks...

How'd you go with melty binding? Were you able to fix it up better, or did you leave it as it was?

---

Nice to know I am not the only old dog learning here...

My daughter had some nail polish that was very close to the right color. Not perfect, but better. Another of my daughters likes to remind me little flaws are a reminder that its not a factory produced clone.

Will send a pic when I can. Right now it is covered up with blue masking tape and paper while I put color on the top.

I just finished putting top coat on my test pieces. The mfg says to use 3-4 coats applied with a foam brush. I used 6. The mfg says that recoat time is about 2 hours with the top coat. Light sanding with 220 grit between coats. I used 320 grit to make sure not to cut through the paint. May use 220 when I final finish to get the last of the brush strokes off. It says it's self leveling, which seems to mean that the brush strokes even out *some*.

Here's my question: How should I final sand, and when. The mfg says dry (for re-coating) time is 2 hours, light use after 7 days, and 21 days for full curing. Should I wait the full 21 before final sanding?

This is a satin finish...any special recommendations for final finishing? Do I just use progressively fine sand paper like with any other finish?

Will do my test on the neck pronto and report... It's a little different since it's poly over the light poly that's already there....

I "finished" putting clear coat over the entire body and selected sites on the neck. Three or four coats where the neck and body meet. At least 10-12 everywhere else applied with a foam brush, and a quick sand with 400 or 320 between coats. Mfg says 3-4 coats is sufficient, but I wanted a good buildup for sanding flat. There are transitions between painted and non-painted spots....and places where I was afraid to sand any more

Now at least 21days to cure... Tom Petty had it right. "The waiting is the hardest part."

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

"The waiting is the hardest part."

---

Yep! fo sho...