Gibson 'style' shapes?

So, you know how gibson les pauls, and what not are shapes lots of people want, but are off limits, because of well, the lawsuit.
Could you possibly modify them slightly to replicate esp eclipses or something? I imagine esp/ ltd wouldn't be as anal about that.
So like, marginally thinner (though esp does do a full thickness version), slightly different horn, tummy cut, etc.

Cause I imagine the lp shapes would be in fairly high demand, but because of the lawsuit, it's still questionable whether you can use them. Though that might be a workaround, and in theory wouldn't require too much extra design work for the stencils or what not

It's an idea, though as the old kits used a paddle headstock to avoid the only really trademarked bits of a LP, it's debatable whether it would stop G's lawyers from still trying it on if they wanted to. It is something clearly beatable in the courts, as others have done it, but it's more all the cost and hassle involved in defending yourself. Yet G seem far less fussed about all the other G-based shapes like the AG and ES-1. So why just the single-cut fixation? I don't profess to even to start to understand G's mindset.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

I don't profess to even to start to understand G's mindset.

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I think the erratic thinking of the last few years has been more than borne out by the chapter 11 proceedings!

Based on the Fender case, if the headstock is a different shape and there is enough difference to make it clear that it isn't a G then perhaps it would be ok. (This is what Warmoth ended up doing). The difference is Fender didn't try and trademark the shape of their guitars until 50 years after releasing the Telecaster, G probably had been around longer and probably remembered to do this.

Theoretically a 10% change in the shape is enough to avoid any patent/copyright infringement. The problem is that there is also a caveat that the new product could not be mistaken for the genuine item by a 'reasonable' person. I suspect that this is where G's lawyers make it difficult and not worth pursuing - especially for a business like Pitbull. I think they could successfully argue there is no chance of the LP copies being mistaken for the real thing by someone who knows what they are looking at, but the time, money and effort to do that against a large multi national would be somewhat daunting. I know Hagstrom got away with it for a very long time with the Swedes - These were pretty clearly copies and in my opinion far superior in terms of overall quality. But even they have made some significant moves away from those shapes to avoid any further hassles.

It's a shame that this is their approach, especially for what amounts to a hobby market - It's not like I'm going to throw down for a genuine G guitar if I can't build the kit. At any rate, I've discovered I actually prefer playing the F style guitars I have, despite wanting an LP for ages. I have a couple of pretty decent substitutes now, but they just don't speak to me as much when I'm playing for whatever reason.

Longed for a LP for ages, bought an Epi Slash AFD a few years ago and moved it on around November last year. Great classic look and sound but they are not quite the must have axe for me anymore, and rather uncomfortable to play for any length of time. Bought my first P90 equipped axe last year (F style) and a LP with them fitted would get me interested as they would give a slightly different voice rather than the same, same sound from nearly every LP with HB's. I must admit that if you only want to sound like Slash or Garry Moore then it must be an LP or nothing.

Because of the era I started listening to him, the iconic Gary Moore guitar for me is a white Strat.......... (I had Emerald Aisles on VHS when I was a teenager)

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Originally Posted by Fretworn

Because of the era I started listening to him, the iconic Gary Moore guitar for me is a white Strat.......... (I had Emerald Aisles on VHS when I was a teenager)

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Presume that pre dates his time at Thin Lizzy?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

Presume that pre dates his time at Thin Lizzy?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

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1984 so probably post Lizzie

Here ya go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bsT7MxsdEE

Yeah, the classic lp's are just too chunky for my liking. Had a play of the ec series ones mentioned above, and they felt so much nicer. Just nicer neck cutaway (not that funky step, bar cheap level), nice weight, etc etc.
Would definitely be interesting to see how it'd go. As said above, 10% is in theory all that is needed, so a thinner body, pointier horn and a different headstock would in theory get you well out of trouble.
Make it inlay-less for that extra touch of 'it doesn't have trapezoids, it's definitely not a g'

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Originally Posted by dave.king1

1984 so probably post Lizzie

Here ya go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bsT7MxsdEE

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Yeah post Lizzy. But I also have the DVD of Gary playing with Thin Lizzy in the Sydney Opera House forecourt in '78. (He plays a LP Junior on that one.)

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Originally Posted by Fretworn

Yeah post Lizzy. But I also have the DVD of Gary playing with Thin Lizzy in the Sydney Opera House forecourt in '78. (He plays a LP Junior on that one.)

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Funny how nearly everyone was playing Strat's in the 1st half of 1980's.

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

Funny how nearly everyone was playing Strat's in the 1st half of 1980's.

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That was to cut through the synths in the mix!

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Originally Posted by enikoy

That was to cut through the synths in the mix!

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Yeah, with all the keyboard bands that makes sense. Probably only the traditional 2 guitar, bass & drums stuck with Gibbos.

Wait a minute, that just described The Angels, one of the best live pub rock bands of that era.

Great thread. We are definitely looking at options for the LP alternative. The one that has the most promise is a "carved" PBG-2 kit. It's an original design (not ours) and not subject to any Trademarks. Also, it's a personal favourite shape of mine, of all the kits we offer. The one DB made for us is a prized possession.

We can offer all the same options; set/bolted, Humbuckers/P90's, Quilted/Flamed/Spalted veneers, and Black, Chrome Gold hardware.

Hopefully we will have these available in November.


Can I also take this opportunity to say: there is no lawsuit, no "protracted legal case" (as I read on Facebook the other day). Neither Gibson nor their lawyers have ever contacted Pit Bull Guitars. We sought our own, independent advice and, on that advice, we decided that the safest option would be to no longer offer LP kits on our site. In short, our decision to remove LP kits was proactive, not reactive.

Well said Adam.

Best form of management is proactive, not reactive.

Cheers, Waz

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Originally Posted by adam

Great thread. We are definitely looking at options for the LP alternative. The one that has the most promise is a "carved" PBG-2 kit. It's an original design (not ours) and not subject to any Trademarks. Also, it's a personal favourite shape of mine, of all the kits we offer. The one DB made for us is a prized possession.

We can offer all the same options; set/bolted, Humbuckers/P90's, Quilted/Flamed/Spalted veneers, and Black, Chrome Gold hardware.

Hopefully we will have these available in November.


Can I also take this opportunity to say: there is no lawsuit, no "protracted legal case" (as I read on Facebook the other day). Neither Gibson nor their lawyers have ever contacted Pit Bull Guitars. We sought our own, independent advice and, on that advice, we decided that the safest option would be to no longer offer LP kits on our site. In short, our decision to remove LP kits was proactive, not reactive.

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I'm not sure how I feel about that shape. It's like a mix between a t and an lp, and it doesn't quite sit well with me. Might be bitter with an arch top though, will have to see.

Also, another good option for an lp style shape would be the ibanez or jackson versions of the single cut. I think the ibanez ones are similar to the lp thickness wise, but different horn and maybe some bevelling somewhere. Ibanez neck joint, etc.

I am curious how a lp would be with a tummy, arm and heel access cut. Might look a bit wack though with the arm one especially. But, good options for making that 10%. Though making it work with an arch top and a veneer isn't probably doable

First post! So maybe my ideas won't be the best, but... Been reading for a while now, and waiting for the project list to be a little shorter and the wallet to be a little heavier before I dive in and start on my own guitar. My first kit would've been an ES-2V, though I always thought the F Holes were a little long and straight. Even better would be an 'ES' version of that style (i.e. built as a centre block hollow body like a 335 rather than being chambered with F Holes, as per the 'Florentine' style).

As a prospective buyer, one who'd have bought an ES-2V, and one who's looked around enough to think that a PGB is by far the best option for an Aussie buyer... I'm not 100% on the idea of the PBG-2 carved top. I think the PBG-2 looks great (only going off photos), but it's not a Lester. It's something closer to my Godin (and, um, I love my Godin, but I've already got it!) or maybe a single cut PRS. Which makes me think it may not drag in those who just want that LP shape (which must be a good number of people, given the amount of bolt-on kits that are out there. I mean, a bolt-on LP? I don't care if Epi do one - it's not a real LP!).

Maybe an idea would be to go with something previously suggested, back when the LP kits were still around.
If people are looking for a Lester style guitar, then perhaps the Duo Jet/Penguin would be ideal. Their pick ups are arguably the greatest cause of tonal difference (and the main reason LP people complain about them), so having the option to use a more standard (PAF) style pick up and a fixed bridge (as you do on the GR-SF) would get people wanting an LP style guitar across the line.

My current idea for a first kit (i.e. what I want, not necessarily what would I'd be able to produce to a high standard) would be a GR-SFG (ideally with gold sparkle binding, and painted Cadillac/Irish green, retaining the Tremolo.). Personally, I'd love to build/own one of these. If it had F holes... I'd need a drooling emoji.

So, it's a neck that's already in PGB's range, it's similar to an LP but it's not an LP (so no avoid issues with those in Chapter 11 land)... Fixing the bridge is a notable change from standard design, I'm thinking the neck joint would also be different (Gretsch don't slot their necks into the body - see here, which also shows the internal chambering), you could always fudge the waist/curves a little (maybe accentuate them a little more?). But then, the GR-SF kit on here doesn't seem to have issues (for now - and hopefully not ever!).

Just an idea. But I promise I'd be saving my pennies for one...

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Originally Posted by Sonic Mountain

Theoretically a 10% change in the shape is enough to avoid any patent/copyright infringement. The problem is that there is also a caveat that the new product could not be mistaken for the genuine item by a 'reasonable' person. I suspect that this is where G's lawyers make it difficult and not worth pursuing - especially for a business like Pitbull. I think they could successfully argue there is no chance of the LP copies being mistaken for the real thing by someone who knows what they are looking at, but the time, money and effort to do that against a large multi national would be somewhat daunting. I know Hagstrom got away with it for a very long time with the Swedes - These were pretty clearly copies and in my opinion far superior in terms of overall quality. But even they have made some significant moves away from those shapes to avoid any further hassles.

It's a shame that this is their approach, especially for what amounts to a hobby market - It's not like I'm going to throw down for a genuine G guitar if I can't build the kit. At any rate, I've discovered I actually prefer playing the F style guitars I have, despite wanting an LP for ages. I have a couple of pretty decent substitutes now, but they just don't speak to me as much when I'm playing for whatever reason.

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wonder if they be able to sue anyone Sonic there up to there ears in debt and bankruptcy is there only way out as they have some ridiculous debt but they shot them selves in the foot by building a few dogs in the last couple of years, they charge you 5k for something worth 800 bucks but everyone yearns for 1 except me as i got 2 and cant play either of them, then i have a ES on the way which i probably wont be able to play lol was thinking about a Les paul hollow B but where do you get one PB doesn't sell them anymore

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Originally Posted by phrozin

wonder if they be able to sue anyone Sonic there up to there ears in debt and bankruptcy is there only way out as they have some ridiculous debt but they shot them selves in the foot by building a few dogs in the last couple of years, they charge you 5k for something worth 800 bucks but everyone yearns for 1 except me as i got 2 and cant play either of them, then i have a ES on the way which i probably wont be able to play lol was thinking about a Les paul hollow B but where do you get one PB doesn't sell them anymore

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Just invest in epiphones, they seem to be built miles better than gibsons these days

Bankruptcy doesn't mean there aren't lawyers around trying to protect the brand. They would be trying to maintain what remains of the brand image to keep extracting $'s from it. But yes, to me it seems like bad PR by a company that can least afford it.

Gibson are in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which means they are still trading but currently protected from creditors whilst they restructure debts and sell off their liabilities. They will probably be cutting back on lawyers costs for brand protection at the moment, but once they come out the other side, I'm sure they'll be back on it.

Since my earlier post, I saw a review of a Heritage Guitars LP ES style guitar. Even Heritage Guitars - built in Gibson's old factory, by former Gibson employees after Gibson moved to Nashville - changed their shape to avoid suit. Their lower bout is 1/2" larger in diameter.

Crazy. The Fender Stratocaster is far and away the most popular design to copy.
Yet Fender don't seem to be embroiled in legalese to anywhere near the same extent.
(and I'll say it again...it all seems to emanate from the 'Les Paul' department alone)

cheers, Mark.

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Originally Posted by king casey

Crazy. The Fender Stratocaster is far and away the most popular design to copy.
Yet Fender don't seem to be embroiled in legalese to anywhere near the same extent.
(and I'll say it again...it all seems to emanate from the 'Les Paul' department alone)

cheers, Mark.

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That’s because Fender forgot to try and trademark the shape of the Tele and Strat until about 50 years after the they were released at which time the trademark was thrown out because there were too many copies on the market already. As long as the headstock is different and the logo is clearly different the body can be the same. I think they did trademark the offset bodies though, which is why you don’t find exact copies of those.

Yeah, they trademarked the headstock for sure. Was a couple of prelawsuit jacksons with fender style headstocks. And yeah, the offset shape makes sense. Would explain why there's very few of them from others, and so many from fender