Custom ES-5V - Jazz Box Meets Baglama

I'd like to learn Middle Eastern music which can be micro tonal in some cases. All of the instruments designed for the purpose that I've managed to get my hands on just didn't feel right:

• Too light and fragile
• Friction tuners
• Tied on frets
• Expensive with unreliable build quality
• Near impossible to source

What I wanted was a frankenstein hybrid between a saz, a tanbour, and a setar (not to be confused with a sitar). Not being the least bit tooly and having never tried wood work before, I initially considered the Cigar Box Guitar option to get something hopefully at least playable. Then I noticed for about $150 more I could get an ES-5V from Pitbull guitars and jumped in.

Hanging out on a CBG forum gave me the idea that this thing could also be good for blues slide guitar - maybe. That being the case, should I call this a Blues Baglama or a Swamp Saz?


Design
My aim is to have three courses of strings tuned to DAD. One low D string and the A and high D strings doubled an octave higher like a twelve string guitar. This will dictate some mucking around with the headstock, nut, bridge and tailpiece.

The microtonal part is where things get interesting. Not having the required skills or patience, I'd rather go fretless than put extra frets in. My idea was to get all the usual fret locations cut, and then cut a few extra ones myself. Instead of installing frets, I'll use a filler of contrasting colour to the fret board.

To preserve the acoustic qualities of the kit I'm trying to mess with the body as little as possible - the fewer holes or things touching it, the better. I've asked for a kit without holes for knobs or pickups routed - just the F holes. I've ordered a humbucker which attaches to the bottom of the neck and hovers above the face of the guitar.
Attachment 26719
I intend on mounting the tone and volume controls to a pick guard.



The Story So Far
The journey towards me obtaining my custom kit has been as much of an eyebrow-raiser as the design concept itself:


18/7/17
Commenced email tango with Adam about what customisations the factory could be trusted with, and where DB might be able to help out.


31/7/17
Have a plan nutted out with Adam which involves the factory sending over a kit with only F holes routed, no frets or fret markers, and no holes in the head stock (apparently drilling one less is an issue for the factory). DB shall sort out a bone nut and drill the holes for the tuning pegs so that my freaky string count/string spacing can be accommodated.

Kit ordered, informed it would arrive late November and be delivered to DB by the 1st or 2nd week of December. I commence holding my breath.


14/11/17 - Roughly 3.5 months since order date
With the arrival date looming I get in touch with DB to discuss mods.


17/12/17 - Roughly 4.5 months since order date
Adam recieves my kit and sends "proof of life" photo.
Attachment 26720
True to their word, the factory has routed only the F holes. I hadn't considered they might be so thorough with those instructions as to not route the neck pocket. After confirming with Adam that I did indeed intend on attaching the neck to the body, he came up with an excellent solution - DB will route the neck pocket.

Awesome news! Quite likely a better outcome than if they routed it at the factory. As an aside - how awesome is this DB character? Good luck finding another luthier who would do all this for such a low price. Custom carved bone nut for $30? Get outta here! Neck pocket on the house? Forget about it! What a legend!


17/1/18 - Roughly 5.5 months since order date
I receive word from Adam that the warehouse has been broken into and my kit has been stolen. The wait commences to see if the police can have the stolen goods returned intact or if a new kit will have to be ordered. Bugger.


3/3/18 - Roughly 7.5 months since order date
Kit is now officially MIA, and Adam informs me that he will cover the cost to have another one air freighted over. Champion!


23/4/18 - Roughly 9 months since order date
Replacement kit arrives.


26/4/18
Adam sends kit to DB. Informs me he should have it by the 27th.


12/5/18 - Roughly 9.5 months since order date
Lost contact with DB. I flick him another email just to check that my kit arrived safe and sound. No reply to that one either. I start to wonder if he's ok...


18/5/18
In the time it's taken for my kit to finally turn up, DB has undergone a period of insightful reflection and decided on a career change. Announces on the forum that he's retired as a luthier. At least now we know he's ok I guess.


19/5/18
DB gets in touch with me. He confirms that he does have the kit, but understandably has no desire to muck around with bone nuts and the like given his resignation the day before. Offers to drop it off at PBG HQ to be sent onto me.


23/5/18
Adam receives kit from DB and sends it onto me.


31/5/18
After 11 months lurking on this forum and 10 months since I placed an order, me and my kit are finally united!!



So, back to the drawing board. I now need a nut that will place:

• The low D string where an A string would normally sit
• The A string where the D string would normally sit
• A groove for an unwound string close to the A string
• High D String where the G string would normally be
• A groove for an unwound string close to the high D

I'll start calling local luthiers for prices, but I have a feeling this is where things are going to get ugly.
Also, I'm wondering if I could get away with a 6 string bridge. Could the doubled courses of strings share a saddle each?
Does the tailpiece play a role in string spacing? If it does I might have to track down a 12 string tailpiece.

Might be worth a chat with Mick Gentry guitar repairs on the Gold Coast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy123

Does the tailpiece play a role in string spacing? If it does I might have to track down a 12 string tailpiece.

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It probably does a bit, in that it sets up the string to break smoothly over the bridge. Rather than look for a 12 string tailpiece (that will still be working on a principle of 6x2) you might look to get a block of brass or aluminium and machine it to replace the existing block on the tailpiece? If yours is anything like mine (no sniggering at the back there) the block that holds the strings is just held on with two nuts and could be a easily replaced with a block you've made (or had made?) to your own requirements.

What an interesting story. Hoping you can find someone to sort those things out for you. Maybe even the guy at the acoustic guitar building place that Zandit is going to might know someone or even be able to do it himself?

Good luck with this unique build. Hopefully the pain of the waiting/factory stuff ups/theft will will make the end result all the more rewarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dedman

Might be worth a chat with Mick Gentry guitar repairs on the Gold Coast.

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Is this an endorsement/recommendation based on work he's done for you? There's a bunch of others closer to me, but if he's recommended highly enough, it might be worth the travel time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blinddrew

It probably does a bit, in that it sets up the string to break smoothly over the bridge. Rather than look for a 12 string tailpiece (that will still be working on a principle of 6x2) you might look to get a block of brass or aluminium and machine it to replace the existing block on the tailpiece? If yours is anything like mine (no sniggering at the back there) the block that holds the strings is just held on with two nuts and could be a easily replaced with a block you've made (or had made?) to your own requirements.

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You might be onto something there.

I figured 12 string gear is readily available and (sort of) easy enough to get parts. It would mean having my strings not centered on the fret board and looking a little odd, but would be a quick/cheap(ish)/easy(ish) option. I've been looking at replacing that block with its 12 string equivalent and possibly getting a ToM top for that bridge - then replacing two of the saddles with 12 string ToM saddles.

If I'm getting a custom nut though, I might as well get that tail piece block custom made so everything sits in the middle. I'm not sure how to tackle the bridge in this approach, but there's bound to be options. I may have to forgo any sort of compensation, as anything with pre-shaped "saddles" so to speak will have them lined up in the wrong spot.

I don't know that I could machine metal, but I could probably replicate it with timber. You've got me thinking now...

He's not done work for me but he does have a good rep

So I got off my butt and spoke to a luthier about getting a nut made, and asked to pick their brain about how to handle string spacing at the other end of the instrument. After a little to-and-fro on email with the Guitar Repairers in Brisbane I was invited to bring it in so they could have a look and discuss my options.

Right off the bat I want to say what a fantastic outfit the Guitar Repairers are. John and Andre really know their stuff, they do great work and are passionate about guitars. They're also a couple of great guys.

Just don't bring them a kit guitar. Seriously. Not a thing you should do.

They didn't end up making a nut for me, but along with a whole bunch of soul crushing discouragement I did get some great insights. For instance:

• String spacing from the tailpiece isn't that important so long as it gets sorted out at the bridge saddles. Existing tailpiece might be fine to use.
• A generic, low cost archtop timber bridge would give me the opportunity to notch the saddles as required.
• Apparently leaving it fretless is a bad idea. My plan of merely filling the empty fret slots with some kind of filler would be insufficient to prevent string tension compromising the structural integrity of the neck. Something more substantial would be required, and they happily started working out a ridiculously un-viable quote for installing veneers instead.

The factory didn't just refrain from installing the frets at my request, they were kind enough to bag them up and send them with my kit. I'm thinking if going fretless is an issue, I might attempt to bang them in myself. I could pinch the two highest ones to use for the microtonal positions (I only need two).

I've got a funny feeling though that there will be more to it than just "banging them in". I'm a little bit terrified. Any advice?

Also on the cards is a possible ebay purchase of a nut blank that I'll attempt to slot like the bridge.

This project has gone from trashy cigar box guitar to classy archtop, back to trashy hack job all of a sudden. I guess as long as its playable and doesn't look embarrassingly bad I'll take that as win.

Depending on the size of the fretwire in your kit, one or another of the mad scientists in the forum might have small lengths of fret wire lying about. I have all sorts of scrap bits, but it’s generally all jumbo wire, I think I have one length of medium jumbo left over.

Fretting is pretty much just banging the frets into the board, but you’ve got to do it very carefully. If you don’t have the luxury of a fret press or the hand held “Jaws” type vice grip press, then it’s a shaped wood block, plus a carefully calibrated hammer.
- Did factory cut the frets to exact length or did they leave them a bit long?
- do they have the tang notched to go over your binding?
- Are they all the same sized fretwire? (I ask as I have had a neck come in on one of my kits that had one fret a smaller gauge that the rest, luckily it was the 22nd)

If the frets are all shaped and trimmed to length, you can set up and bang them in as follows:
- sort them by length, first to 20 whatever
- clear your work area and set your tools up
- take each fret, set it in the slot, and tap or press the ends in
- take your block, gently tap the ends in until they seat against the board, then go back and forward across it unti it is seated across the entire length.
- work your way down the board from one end to the other (doesn’t matter if it’s one to 22/24 or 22/24 to 1)
- once you’ve got them all in, check to insure they are all seated properly, tap them in with the block if they aren’t.

I think there is a section in the build guide on fret dressing so I’ll leave that for now, there are also plenty of YouTube vids on it as well.

if you you are a handy type then you should be able to do this with minimum stress, but you’ll still need to have the frets dressed afterward and recrowned and that takes some real patience and specific tools.
- long levelling block
- Fret rocker or similar substitute
- small file for fret ends
- crowning file
- sand paper and steel wool for polishing

chances are it’s one of those jobs you’d have to get a luthier to do, but you’ll pay their prices for the work. You’ve already experienced the Typical Luthier’s Disdain for kit builds, and many of them simply won’t work on kits.

You are up in Brissy, so you have Australian Luthier’s supplies close the hand, I’d buy your nut blanks from there unless you’ve got a trusted eBay supplier already for these. I have found ALS quality good and price reasonable for this sort of stuff.

happy fretting, really look forward to seeing how this turns out!

Hope this helps

Thanks the advice. I'm still terrified, but not quite as much now. Fretting a neck from scratch as "step one" was not the introduction to kit guitar building I'd bargained on!!

It'll probably be another few months before I can dig this out again, but I will certainly keep the build diary up to date.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy123

Thanks the advice. I'm still terrified, but not quite as much now. Fretting a neck from scratch as "step one" was not the introduction to kit guitar building I'd bargained on!!

It'll probably be another few months before I can dig this out again, but I will certainly keep the build diary up to date.

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If you get stuck holler! There’s a number of blokes up Brissy/GC way that might be able to assist. I’ve done similar work for others if you run out of options and nerve, but I’m in deepest, darkest inner Sydney.