Neck - Bridge issues

Hi all,
I'm hoping someone can help me out with a suggestion about an issue I'm having.

Build thread is here: http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...?t=4329&page=4

Anyway. All put together and wired up, had a play and sounds pretty good, was very happy. I thought I would let it sit for a day or so, and then start tweaking the intonation.

Got the nut and neck not bad using the methods on here (neck is a little tricky... seems a fraction high, but nothing too bad).

When I went to intonate.... no go. Can't get it right.

Measured up, and the bridge is slightly out. I measured as per instructions on here - and it seemed pretty good ( I think it says it should be within 3 mm).

Now, with the neck glued in - it's out. I'll let the pictures do the talking....

Attachment 17249

Measurement from the start of the nut, to the 12th fret.
around 31.1 cm

Measurement from 12th fret to the bridge

Attachment 17250

Around 32 to the middle.


To the thin e string

Attachment 17251

I can almost get the thin e to work.

Now.
The neck is as far in as it can go:

Attachment 17252


Attachment 17253

And there's no extra space here - the neck pickup is as far back into the hole as it can go.

The LP copy's are pretty spot on to intonate. Your scale length looks right

does it play open chords in tune? or not Is it just out at the 12th? sharp or flat?

Also is the neck straight, ie the same amount of fretboard either side of the Eand e strings?

Attachment 17254

So, my question. I'm stuck really. I'm not sure what to do here.

I thought there is only 2 ways to fix this.

Take the neck off (really don't want to do that, as it's glued in. That will be a nightmare for me, my skills are a bit rubbish) - knock a bit off the bottom and side so it can be pushed in a fraction further.
However, then I run into trouble with the pickups - I can't push them any further back as is, so would have to take them out, chisel out some space, etc.

I don't think my skills are quite up to that.

So then that leaves with with the only other thing I can think of.

Take out the bridge, somehow try and pull out the bits hammered in - plug up the holes with dowel, and redrill about 5 mm closer.

But - then I think I'll end up gouging the top to buggery, have to fill in the top of the dowel perfectly, and have to try and colour match the top/ink etc without it looking completely different, and like a patch job.

In short - I'm stumped.

Neither of those options are particularly attractive.

So, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance....

It's flat at the 12th.

the gap at either side of both e's is pretty much identical

It's marginally out as you move up the neck (5th, 7th 9th etc), but gets worse as you go.

Just checked the measurements on my LP1-SS. It was 313mm to the 12th and 626mm to the edge of the bridge (not the saddles).
the saddles are pretty much in the usual position of LP's

did you replace the nut?

From your initial pics it looks like the high E is actually pretty close.

Wind the high and low E saddles all the way forward (make sure all saddles slope away from the nut) and then post pics of full scale measurements for both E's along the path of the strings. That should give us a better idea of the situation.

no, the original nut.
OK, I'll take those measurements. Mine is the same as yours Andy. 626 to the start of the bridge.

Half of my saddles face the other way weirdbits. I'll take it apart now, turn it around and then take the measurements.

Im stumped mate

What strings have you got fitted? If they aren't the Ernie Balls or your own favourite strings, or they are the kit's set, it may very well be worth fitting a decent set of strings. Everything else appears to be roughly OK measurement wise.

Flip the bridge around as it looks back to front. The screws should be facing the bridge humbucker not the stop tail piece as you have done in these shots. Hopefully that gets things a bit closer to where it needs to be. Sometimes you may also have to take one of the saddles out and change the direction it is facing, most likely culprit may be the low E.

Check out this photo to see what I mean...

Attachment 17257

ok, maybe I was a bit premature.

Here's every measurement I can find.

firstly, I turned everything around in the bridge to face away from the nut, and wound them as close as I possibly could to the front.

Capo on the first fret, holding down the last, I have about .8 mm at 9th fret.

1.75 mm on high e at 12th, about 2 at low e. (feels high, is higher than I have my tele at).

Now, it's just about bang on.
e is ok
a is still flat a touch
d is just a tiny bit flat
g, b, e marginally flat, but really close.

If i raise the bridge a fraction, they get closer, but it's nasty to play.

measurements:

Low E: inside of nut - crown of 12th: 311.5
high E: inside of nut - crown of 12th: 311.5

low e: inside 12th - where string rests: 317
high e: inside 12th - string: 314

Ok, tomorrow I'll give flipping the bridge around a go, see what happens

Cheers mate.

Don't be too hung up on the measurements just yet. Just keep working on the intonation as it can be a tricky thing to get right and best place to start is setting the action where it feels comfortable then tune open note, check 12th harmonic, check 12th fretted note and just keep making the small minor adjustments as you go, remembering to retune the open string after every adjustment.

EDIT: When doing intonation it is very important that all open strings are in tune as things can get whacky if they are not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

Flip the bridge around as it looks back to front. The screws should be facing the bridge humbucker not the stop tail piece as you have done in these shots.

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There is no real 'right' or 'wrong' way to have an ABR type tune-o-matic bridge. They are basically reversible and it's more a matter of preference as to which way you want the saddle screws to go. It's often easier to have the screws facing forwards to stop the strings catching on them with tail piece set low, but the slot widths are symmetrical (once allowance is taken for the screw retaining flange), so there's no real benefit to be gained from rotating the bridge in terms of travel. Having the screws facing backwards (away from the neck) often makes it a lot easier to adjust the intonation, especially if the bridge pickup is set quite high.

The slanted saddles can be reversed to maximise the amount of adjustment if needed, just remember to remove the retaining spring to do it and then replace it afterwards.

Interestingly I have a spare Gibson ABR-1 bridge at hand to compare with a PitBull one, and the Gibson bridge has narrower length slots, so has less fore and aft adjustment than the Pit Bull one! The difference in quality does show though, the Gibson saddles sit firm in the slots with zero rattle, whilst the PitBull bridge saddles rattle around from side to side and back and forwards.

The later Nashville T-O-M bridge has wider slots, allowing for larger intonation adjustments (and sloppier bridge placement), but the saddle adjustment screws are lower and smaller, and can't catch on the strings as they pass to the tail-piece. This bridge was designed to have the screws facing away from the neck (though again, there's nothing stopping you having it the other way around - though again, the bridge pickup is even more likely to make it awkward to get a screwdriver on to the lower-set screws.

The action seems a little on the high side to me. I'd concentrate on getting the action sorted before the intonation. What are the string heights over the first fret like? Too high a distance here and it can affect your action and intonation all over the neck.

I've had a look at the height at the first fret, and it seems very high.

Found this on the stew mac site about string height:

Electric guitar

Bass E
Treble E

Action at the 1st fret

.024"
.010"

Action at the 12th fret

.078"
.063"

Relief: .001" at the 8th fret


That lines up pretty much with what the action on my Tele is like. This LP is just over double those heights, more on the high e.

I've already made the slots a bit deeper in the nut, so I guess I'll be taking it off, and sanding some off the bottom.

Once I have it done - what's the best glue to put it back with? It won't be the same as I used for the neck, will it?

Titebond or PVA is fine. You can also use a couple of small dabs of superglue - but don't overdo it otherwise you may end up taking some wood with it if you have to remove it again.

If you've already deepened the notches and have decent tools to do it, then I'd always prefer to leave the nut on, deepen the notches and then file the top of the saddle down again.

But getting the neck relief sorted is the first job, then the bridge height, then the nut height and then the intonation.

If with a lower bridge height, the higher frets are choking out whilst nearer the nut the guitar plays OK, then I'd straighten the neck more, then raise the bridge height a bit and see how that feels. Ignore the 12th fret action at the moment as that is affected by the nut slots; just concentrate on getting each fret playing cleanly and not choking when you bend the strings. You don't want to go more than flat with the fretboard, so use a straight edge (if you have one, a notched straight edge is better as the fretboard itself should be slightly more even than the tops of the frets) to check. Any upward bow in the middle of the neck and you've gone too far, and take it back to flat.

You may now discover that one or two frets choke out whilst the rest are fine. The fret above each choking fret is probably slightly higher than the others. If there appears to be a gap under the fret, then support the neck under the fret with either a sandbag or a proper neck support and try tapping the fret in further with a soft hammer. This should either have a hard plastic or brass face to it but if not, then use a piece of hardwood and an ordinary hammer. Not too much force with each tap and the fret may seat itself better.

If there's no under-fret gap or tapping doesn't help, then you'll need to file the offending fret(s) down, a bit, re-profile it and then polish it.

If there are more than a couple of high frets, then it would probably be best to do a full fret levelling, reprofiling and polishing exercise (a subject in itself and you will need to get a few specialist tools).

Once the bridge is as low as you can go with all the frets playing cleanly, then that's the time to attack the nut slots. Do it before the above actions, and lowering the bridge will change the string height at the 1st fret. Not a lot, but maybe enough to cause some buzzing.

Once the slots are lowered sufficiently, and the action is decent all the way over the neck, then now's the time to look at setting the intonation. The strings are at their minimum height over the frets, so fretting a string will add the minimum amount of extra tension to the string and so the 12th fret note and harmonic will be as in tune as possible.