Neck Problem

Hi Everyone, long time no post from me, been away with work, Christmas etc. Doen a few gigs with my new RCA4 - absolutely chuffed to bits, sounds great, just got a new TC Electronics amp as well which is fantastic. Anyway, got a bit of a problem - the neck (glued) seems to be coming loose. There a bit of a gap on the back, plus you can see the bare wood a bit on the front where the neck sits in the body see pictures attached.Has anyone had this happen before, and what do I do about it. Does the neck need to come out and be re glued, or do I need to put a plate on the back and screw through to the neck to hold it in ?
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks Alan.

Very difficult to say exactly without seeing it in the flesh, but if it's definitely moving, then yes, it will really need to be re-glued. Can you move the end of the neck with your hand and see the joint move around? I'd strip the bass so you can see all off the neck join, in case there's also movement on the tenon in the neck pickup pocket area. Once it's started to come unglued, then the string tension will keep pulling away at it and one day it's suddenly going to come off.

That kit doesn't have a lot of neck/body contact area, so it is important that as much of the neck heel/tenon and sides make good contact and were well clamped and left to dry for at least 24 hours. For one side of the neck to have moved up a bit, then all the glue on that side of the neck, plus a lot on the heel on that side, must have failed. So you've probably got a maximum of 50% of the original glue still holding the neck on.

Looking back on your build diary, you masked off the neck heel when painting, so you should have had a good clean wood to wood join.

Can you remember what glue you used to stick the neck on with? Was it the standard Titebond?

I've never removed a neck, but there are two methods to do so. One involves steam, removing frets, drilling holes in the bottom of those fret slots so that you can get a hollow needle down to the join area in several places and inject steam to dissolve the glue. The other is to heat up a thin spatula blade and insert it between the joins, again to attack the glue and melt it away. The latter is the easiest method to try ( I bought some cheap metal artist's spatulas in case I have to do this), though the hot spatula may affect the finish around the neck joint which will need some repairing once the neck's back on.

If you simply try and pull it off, then there's a danger that some well-glued areas will still hold and you'll get chunks of body or neck coming away as well.

Simon's bang on about how to fix it if its moving. I think the key is what glue did you use and possibly how much? The RCA's as a bass with a set neck have got a lot of tension with the strings, but with some decent glue and good adhesion, it shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks Simon, sounds like a bit of a major job. Yes, used regular the Titebond, left it clamped for 3 days. As you say the neck ends were clean when I glued it. I can't move the neck at all by hand so it looks like it is gradually failing. I've been playing it for about 2 months, so it's been under tension for maybe 12 weeks. Don't want it to suddenly go in the middle of a gig, so thought I'd better deal with it now. What's your thoughts on bolting it through the back ?

I wonder if it is some slight body shrinkage, or warping which might give a similar looking result...
Titebond clamped for 3 days should hold well, unless too much was squeezed out, or clamping was so tight that that amount of glue was insufficient

I couldn't see any pictures of the neck joint itself in the build diary, but from what I could see of the pictures of the back, it all looked level. Did you notice any gap in that heel area once you had first glued it on, or was it nice and level?

You could fit a neck plate and screw it on. It would spoil the look a bit, but it would certainly help hold the neck on. Ideally the neck plate would be wider than standard, so that it spreads the load over a wider area. The body wood directly under the neck is quite thin, and without glue helping to hold the neck on at least one of the sides, most of the force from the neck is taken by this thinner piece of wood. So something a bit wider would help spread the load to the thicker body wood at the sides. But a quick look on the web doesn't show much hope for an off-the-shelf option here.

You'd also need to be careful about screw length. You probably wouldn't get more than two long screws in at the front of the neck heel, the rear ones would probably go into the neck tenon, and have to be a lot shorter.

Though you might find a plain 6-hole neck plate which you could rotate 90°, have the neck held on by two central screws (well it is already held on by glue), then use some short stubby screws in the four outer holes.

As far as I remember everything was in order when I glued it - no gaps anywhere, neck joint was flat, didn't clamp too hard etc. But obviously I've messed up somewhere. Not sure I am going to be able to get the neck out easily, apart from the gap and the bit of movement it seems solid. So I think I might go with the neck plate idea. Thought I might try applying some pressure with the clamps first to see if I can push the neck back down, before screwing the plate on. Good thought re the six hole plate. You're right it would spoil the look a bit, but better that than messing it up all together trying to get the neck out perhaps. The colour is a one off as well, which was hand mixed so not repeatable. So I would have to sand it all off and start the finishing again.

I feel your pain.

You might be able to get a syringe and needle and inject some more glue into the gap before you try and clamp it. eBay would be a good place to start for that sort of thing. I can see loads of syringes, plus blunt-nosed needles for glue from China on my eBay.

Thanks Simon, that's a good idea. There a Luther's supplies that I know, so he might be able to sort out a plate, or perhaps I might have to have one made specially. Thanks for your help - much appreciated. I guess the next thing is to make a start - fingers crossed it might still be playable when I've finished ! !

You could also show it to the luthier, he might be able to remove the neck quickly and easily (and thus cheaply) if you want to re-glue it. He then might be able to tell you why it started to come apart, and what to do better next time.

Just found a guitar maker who does repairs as well, been at it for 40 years so should have a good idea, he has a good write up, only about half an hour away, so I think it's probably worth a visit before I do anything.

I'd remove the strings and as much of the pickguard as you can beforehand so he can have a look in the neck pocket to see the tenon as well. It will help him to give you a more accurate quote for repairing or removing/resetting the neck.

Cheers Simon, will do

You could always use ferrules and shorter screws rather than a traditional bolt-on neck plate. That would not look too much out place and also be recessed so things don't catch on your clothing or belt buckle (heaven forbid!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

You could always use ferrules and shorter screws rather than a traditional bolt-on neck plate. That would not look too much out place and also be recessed so things don't catch on your clothing or belt buckle (heaven forbid!).

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The trouble is there's only 4 or 5 mm of fairly soft basswood under the neck. Recessing a ferrule would take 2 to 3 mm out of that. I wouldn't call relying on 2-3mm of basswood a very secure fitting. Neither does a ferrule spread the load much, which was the whole idea of fitting a wider plate.

Hopefully Alan's luthier will have a go at removing and re-gluing the neck so he doesn't need a plate or screws at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wazkelly

You could always use ferrules and shorter screws rather than a traditional bolt-on neck plate. That would not look too much out place and also be recessed so things don't catch on your clothing or belt buckle (heaven forbid!).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

The trouble is there's only 4 or 5 mm of fairly soft basswood under the neck. Recessing a ferrule would take 2 to 3 mm out of that. I wouldn't call relying on 2-3mm of basswood a very secure fitting. Neither does a ferrule spread the load much, which was the whole idea of fitting a wider plate.

Hopefully Alan's luthier will have a go at removing and re-gluing the neck so he doesn't need a plate or screws at all.

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So is there any advantage between the two designs? If used on an LP style guitar where there is a bit more meat in the body, which one wold be better?

I don't know about 'better'. From a structural engineering point of view, anything that spreads the load more is generally a stronger design, but there comes a point where 'strong enough to do the job with a sensible safety margin' is fine. It's all going to depend on the woods and thicknesses used. A ferrule will help spread the load out over a larger area on the wood than the screw head alone. There will come a point where if the guitar falls over and the neck hits something on the way down, where it's not the heel joint that fails but something on the neck. However, if there isn't sufficient resistance in the wood, repeated pressure on the neck forcing it backwards and forward in normal use could pull the ferrule into the body over time, making it, and the neck joint, loose.

Pick the right body woods and sufficient depth at the neck heel and there's no problem. But you have to remember that the neck will act as a lever on that joint, so any knock near the end of the neck can put considerable pressure on the joint. Given ferruled screws, a hard maple neck and a much softer basswood body that's maybe 5mm thick at best at the neck joint, then I'd put money on the basswood splitting rather than the maple. In this instance a wide neck plate would give a much better chance of everything holding together.

I know the general principles, but not the specifics here, so I don't want to state that this would actually happen in this instance, just that there is a point in body neck joint thinness where it will happen, so it really is best to avoid that happening.

Spot on Simon, I hadn't given much thought to how little timber thickness there was and the plate would help to spread the load forces.

Hi Guys

The Luthier guy turned out to be not viable, he was really a vintage guitar restorer/repairer, and wanted about £600 just to look at it. However, he did give me a few ideas of what to do. He said that trying to get the glue unstuck to get the neck out would be a bit of a problem and might result in some damage. So in the end I have utilised a couple of 90 degree brackets. and screwed them into the top of the neck fitting where it slots into the body and then into the side of the cavity, which is into the main guitar body, one on each side. Sorry forgot to take any pictures - was in to much haste to rectify the problem ! So, in theory this should stop the neck moving in any direction now. I then re did the shielding over the two brackets - so still no buzzing etc. Probably sounds a bit unconventional but hopefully it will work, if not it will be going to plan B - neck plate. We'll see.