Tonerider pickups..

hey there, gang..

... re-visiting an old project and looking at repowering a single h/b, 1V 1T w/coil split with a Tonerider ACII Classic because I'm looking for a slightly underwound sound - about 8kΩ, as opposed to the 12kΩ one that's in there presently -, and the specs look pretty damn good... as does the price! I've used premium priced pickups before - SD and Bareknuckle - and found that they really aren't worth hundreds of dollars more than say, Kent Armstrongs!! YMMV, of course!!

So. Anyone got anything to say about Toneriders?? I believe you cannot have too much information in these cases, so let's hear you!!

Second question. The ACII is a 4 wire pickup, so can I put in the coil split AND a series/parallel switch? Working it out on paper suggests I can, and I've checked a manufacturers website which also says I can: does anyone in here know for sure if it's a go-er?

Thanks troops!!

John

Hey John, welcome.
Toneriders seem to get great reviews here, I doubt you'd go wrong with them.
Member Wierdbits is the wiring guru, but what you suggest sounds pretty doable

Cheers, man - I'll wait for the man to put me right!!

Hi John, and welcome to the forums.

I put some Toneriders (can't remember the model) in an early Strat build of mine and then compared it to a $2.5k real Strat of a good friend of mine. We used his Marshall amp to get as good a comparison as we could and by the time you unplugged his guitar and plugged in my PBG we found it hard to pick any difference if any at all. He had new strings on his Fender and mine were a few months old at the time and we put the difference down to that. I know we're talking single coils here, but it proved to me that Toneriders are good value for the money.

I have also put AC4 HB's in a Tele thinline and a HSH strat and have been equally happy with them. I coil split the HSH but have not tried a series/parallel switch so can't comment.

Hope this helps.

rob

I've used Rocksongs, Hot classics and Precision plus. You won't be disappointed. Best bang for buck pickups out there, I reckon.

Hi John welcome to the forum, I've used Toneriders on a few builds and recommend them good value for money.
Weirdbits the resident wiring guru will help you do a coil split and series/parallel wiring diagram that will be possible to do.

I have Tone Riders in a Tele and their P90's in a LP, can't fault either

Yep, easy to do, a single On/On/On mini-toggle will allow you to have series/split/parallel. Alternatively, two push/pull pots can give you humbucker/split on one and series/parallel on the other... or, the two push/pulls can be inter-linked to give you 4 options: humbucker series, humbucker parallel, north single coil, south single coil.

Nice one, guys - thanks for the heads-up! Tonerider ACII it is, then!!

Scott, thank you! I need to fill the old output jack hole with something as re-finishing the front is a non-runner; I've re-sited the output jack to an Electrosocket side mount so an on/on sounds like 'the go' there!! Just a bog standard DPDT switch?

Is this diagram pretty close?

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/pro...-Parallel.html

You blokes are great... you wanna see the thing in question? It's not a PBG, though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dedman

I have Tone Riders in a Tele and their P90's in a LP, can't fault either

---

Are the Tonerider P90's very noisy?

Yep, something like that layout for separate humbucker/split and series/para push/pulls.

Any On/On/On double-pole mini-toggle, preferably a lot cheaper, should be fine.

Wired something like this for the mini-toggle:
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/med...d1h0011_07.jpg

For the inter-linked push/pulls option I don't have a bridge only diagram drawn up, but this should give you the basic idea. Just look at the neck volume and neck tone wiring and ignore everything else (including the phase toggle switch).
Attachment 14537
Volume and Tone down: series humbucker
Volume and Tone up: parallel humbucker
Volume up, Tone down: screw coil
Volume down, Tone up: slug coil
(depending on your configuration)

Tonerider Alnico IV's in my EX-1 and they sound awesome. Also went to the trouble of using bourns push/pull vol & tone pots for coil split only but did not bother with parallel as that sound is a bit thin for my liking.

If you haven't already checked Tonerider website it has some great sound clips for most of their PUP's which helped me decide on which ones to buy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corsair

Nice one, guys - thanks for the heads-up! Tonerider ACII it is, then!!

Scott, thank you! I need to fill the old output jack hole with something as re-finishing the front is a non-runner; I've re-sited the output jack to an Electrosocket side mount so an on/on sounds like 'the go' there!! Just a bog standard DPDT switch?

Is this diagram pretty close?

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/pro...-Parallel.html

You blokes are great... you wanna see the thing in question? It's not a PBG, though...

---

Would love to see it, doesn't matter if it isn't PBG, a few non local kits are floating around the forum build threads

I put tonerider ACII Classics in my LP. they sound just as good as any gibson or SD pups. I love the alnico II's

Wow... cheers, Scott; what a cracker!! Yep; that's me, right there!!

And yeah; ACIIs FTW! :-)

A quick peek for those who asked...

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...pse01cebcb.jpg

New p/u and electronics, output to be shifted to a sidemount, neck sanded back and frets dressed, headstock completely redone by the Paintdoctor in Maryborough still with my father's wings and decorations and lockers in the tuner holes. Really just an itch that had to be scratched! I want it to be a companion piece to this one...

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1vfjtx9p.jpg

... this is the one I need the AIF Rising Sun badge for.

Thanks for the advice and recommendations, you blokes!!

Neck's back and installed - once again, Hans did me proud and this time, he didn't even charge me!?! He said it was because he didn't finish the job the way we had agreed, but I think it was because he's a good bloke...

Whacked on the tuners, string trees and TRC, sanded down the bare wood on the back of the neck down to 2000 grit and blended the transition areas in and bolted it up. Put on the strings that came off it - I neglected to get a new nut so need to do that - just to hear what the Tonerider sounded like... tuned it up.... then turned on the amp.

Wow!! What a noise! The series/split/parallel is actually quite a subtle change, but it does change the sound appreciably with no apparent loss of volume... something that surprised me given that the impedance readings varied wildly!!

Very, very muscular, meaty sound that is clear and bell-like unaffected, through a clean amp but it dirties up just fine. Modern, scooped middish distortion is not this pickups forté but that classic overdrive-y sound will be a doddle to sort out, and the sort of cleans that Peter Green is famous for should also be easily obtainable; excellent!! Very, very pleased with the pickup and the switching and I love the look of the colour-matched headstock with the medal ribbons painted on - happy boy here!!

Pics soon and merry Xmas, you blokes!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muzza

Are the Tonerider P90's very noisy?

---

Any straight P-90 is going to pick up a lot more noise than a humbucker, and more noise than a thin single coil like a Strat's. With its wide flat coils it's probably the pickup most prone to noise out there, which is why there have been a lot of dual-stacked versions in order to reduce the noise levels. Gibson's own attempt, the P-100, was quiet but didn't have the P-90 sound. Most of the double stacked versions are significantly deeper than the normal P-90s, so may not fit in guitars with thinner bodies.

My first P-90 equipped guitar was a Gibson LP DC faded (i.e. a cheap double cut LP special) and that was very noisy. I shielded the cavities and that helped a bit, but the lack of metal covers on most P-90s allows a lot of noise in. A friend has an old ES-330 with metal dog-ear P-90s, and he's never noticed undue noise. It seems a shame to me that manufacturers don't offer metal covers options for soap-bar P90s. They could still paint them black or cream and have them look like the plastic versions. The humbucker sized P-90s invariably come with a metal cover and benefit from the increased shielding, so why can't the normal ones?

Of course the amount of noise is going to depend on how much electrical noise there is in the location where it's being played, so for somewhere with minimal electric/electronics, they could be as quiet as anything else.

The Tonerider vintage P-90 set is a RWRP set, so are hum-cancelling in the 'both pups on' position. It's not stated on their website whether the Hot 90 set is, but being hotter, will probably also pick up a bit more noise.

The set of Kent Armstrong P90 p'ups in my Rat are reasonably quiet; there is a little hiss in bridge and neck only positions and nothing discernable when both are selected. The hiss is nothing a good gate can't fix...:cool:

My HotRod Strat has a Tonerider Rocksong Bridge Humbucker installed in it and I have to say that I really like it, and the pickup only cost me about $60.00 from Realtone Music, I was expecting it to sound a bit so so for that price, but was pleasantly surprised at just how good it sounded, and I agree, Tonerider pickups are best bang for the buck, so I'm seriously considering buying more in future.


Oh yeah, my HotRod Strat also has a couple of Kent Armstrong Dual Blade Single-Coil sized Humbuckers installed too, they are great for the price, I bought them from Realtone Music for about $50.00 each.

I'll be putting Tonerider Hot Classic Tele pickups in the Tuff Dog tribute when I build it in the new year

I'm lead to believe the Tonerider Octane is pretty good... hehe

https://vimeo.com/176008570

Toneriders & Squier CV pickups come out of the same loading dock according to them in the know.

Not all Squier pickups are created equal, the CV ones in the CV Thinline are marked TCA1N & TCAN1B

N for neck and B for bridge. Fairly standard.

Here we are, lads....

Tonerider ACII with a series/coil split/parallel switch where the tone pot used to be and the tone pot shifted to the old output socket spot.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps83bznzm6.jpg

The new headstock design....

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psb5znzrjw.jpg

... and as she is now,

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psstnpufo4.jpg

I've sanded the back of the neck right down to 2000 grit and oiled it very, very lightly with Lizardspit, and it is beyond delightful to play!!

The pickup is just a monster; the impedance readings were switch up (series) - 2.2kΩ, middle - (coil split <north>) - 4.21kΩ and down (parallel) - 8.25kΩ but don't let that fool you; there is very little volume loss between settings!! Would someone please explain that to me, because I don't know why that should be so!!
The tonal differences are quite marked or quite subtle, depending on what outboard stuff I have dialled in, but at no FX with the tone approximately in the middle, the difference is subtle and if I had to quantify them I'd say that parallel is balls out, full on h/b noise - will do Peter Green or Slash with aplomb; coil split is a touch "thinner" as you'd expect and series is like parallel but with more pronounced hi-end happening.

I do know that I like it - a lot and will upgrade my first PBG kit with Toneriders of some stripe; just epic bang for the buck!!

Simply sounds like your switch settings are actually the other way round to that you've described. The parallel setting will have the lowest resistance, the single coil the middle resistance and the series connection the highest resistance. So simply replace 'series' with 'parallel' and 'parallel with series' and it all makes sense.

I was recently setting up someone else's ES-1 build and they had the Tonerider AC4 pickups in. They sounded OK but were very hot, too hot really for the guitar and I had to turn the volume way down to get a clean tone without the front end of the amp being pushed. The ACIIs would have been a better fit.

Ah, there we go; thanks for that Simon - I had indeed transposed the series/parallel in describing the switch!!

However, my question remains; why, when there is such an enormous discrepancy in impedance values, does the volume not alter appreciably when switching between positions??

Pretty simple maths really

To use easy numbers 4 + 4 = 8 ( series ) 4 And 4 in parallel = 4/2 = 2.

The current & voltage remain constant in a parallel & series circuits at the common point ( jack socket in this case ) P= I x E

The impedance value of a pickup is only really useful in estimating it's output relative to another pickup of the same configuration. If you swap a humbucker from the normal series arrangement to a parallel arrangement, then each individual coil is still creating the same signal. The difference is that in a series configuration, the signal from one coil is then passing through the second coil, so the output from the second coil is superimposed on top of that of the first coil. For a parallel configuration, the two voltages are simply averaged to get the resultant output. (There is also some extra interaction between the two coils but it's pretty complicated stuff and beyond my knowledge, but it does contribute slightly to the sound).

So for a series connection, this means that if the output from the first coil at a certain moment in time peaks at say +1v, then the output from the second coil will be added to this, so that if the second coil also generated a signal that peaked at +1v, then the total output at that point would be +2v. If one coil generated +1v and the other +0.5v at a point in time, then the combined output would be 1v + 0.5v = +1.5v.

For a parallel connection in the same circumstance, the voltage outputs of each coil would be averaged, so that if both coils generated a peak of +1v, the averaged value would be (1v + 1v)/2 = +1v. If one coil generated +1v and the other +0.5v at a point in time, then the combined output would be (1v + 0.5v)/2 = +0.75v. So in a very simple model, the output of a series-wired humbucker should always be double that of a parallel-wired humbucker.

This is one reason why parallel wired humbuckers produce a lower output than those wired in series. (Dave, I think you were thinking about passive components in series and parallel arrangements, but pickups are voltage/current generators so are a special case).

But the two coils don't produce the same waveforms. They are located around 17mm/0.67" apart and so each see a different part of the string. Whilst for the fundamental note and the first couple of harmonics, the string should be going in the same direction (although at different levels of deviation from the at-rest position). However, when you get to the much higher harmonics, the string might be moving in one direction above one coil, but in the opposite direction above the other coil. In this instance, you get either partial or total cancellation of the signals, so that a lot of the higher harmonics are either very attenuated or eliminated entirely. This is one reason why single coils sound brighter than humbuckers - they simply have a lot more higher harmonics present.

Another reason is that each pickup has inductance, impedance and capacitance values that help define the way the pickup sounds.

Here's an equivalent electrical representation of a pickup:

Attachment 16074

Vs is the AC source voltage generated by the pickup. Vo is the final output voltage. The inductance L and the coil impedance R, are in series with the voltage generator, whilst the capacitance is in parallel with the other components.

This arrangement forms a 2nd order low-pass filter with a resonant peak at the 'turnover' frequency point. At frequencies above this point, the frequency response drops off quite quickly at a rate of -12dB per octave.

Series-connected humbuckers generally have higher resistance, inductance and capacitance than a normal single coil pickup, which results in a lower resonant frequency than on a single coil pickup. E.g. for a low-output single coil pickup with a 5k ohm resistance, an inductance of 2 Henries and a capacitance of 100pF, the resonant peak is at 9.2kHz, with an amplitude boost of +27dB at the peak. For a high output humbucker with a 15k ohm resistance, an inductance of 10 Henries and a capacitance of 200pF, the resonant peak is at 3.6kHz, with an amplitude boost of +23dB at the peak.

Here are those values for a single coil and a humbucker plotted on a graph. This makes it easy to see the lower resonant peak frequency value of the humbucker compared to the single coil.

Attachment 16073

Lower coil resistance and inductance values of less powerful humbuckers (such as PAF style ones) increase the resonance peak frequency - which explains why these lower powered humbuckers can sound very clear in comparison to the hotter wound ones.

Note that adding volume and tone controls also affect the resonance peak, but at least this shows the other main reason that humbuckers sound darker and more middley than single coils - because the upper-mids and lower trebles are boosted (compared to the flat response of a single coil at these frequencies), whilst the mid- and upper-treble frequencies are filtered off. A single coil has a higher resonance peak - so has a flat response in the middle frequencies - whilst it is the treble frequencies that are boosted and that the low pass filtering doesn't start to cut frequencies out below the upper threshold of (good) human hearing at 20kHz.

Of course, the guitar's sound is then generally passed through a guitar amp with a speaker that doesn't put out much above 5-6kHz, so that's another low-pass filter the guitar's sound passes through. So you'd rarely get to hear the resonant peak of a single coil pickup, but you do get to hear some of the mid-biased peak of a humbucker.

Getting back to series/parallel humbucker operation, when the two coils are wired in parallel, then each coil behaves as if it's a single coil, so the inductance, resistance and capacitance values of the series-wired humbucker are to all practical purposes halved, and the resonant peak of each coil of the humbucker is moved upwards, giving a much less middley, far more trebley sound. Which is why a humbucker in parallel mode sounds pretty close to a single coil - it's only the phase cancellations and reinforcements at different frequencies caused by the two coils sensing different locations along the string that create a difference in sound to a true single coil. But the benefit is that as one coil is reverse polarity and reverse wound to the other one, that any airborne mains noise is picked up as an out-of-phase signal on one coil compared to the other one, cancel out when the two coil signals are combined and so it remains humbucking and (almost) noise free.

So to summate:


*In series mode, one coil's output is added to the second coil's output; whilst in parallel mode, the two coil outputs are averaged. A series-wired humbucker produces a stronger voltage signal (by roughly 6dB) than the same pickup wired in a parallel configuration.

*Each coil in a standard side-by-side humbucker produces a different output waveform because it is sensing a different part of the string. The higher harmonic frequencies interact and cause a frequency-dependent mixture of signal addition and cancellation. This is one reason why humbuckers sound different to single coils.

*A pickup, whilst creating an AC voltage when the strings vibrate over it, also acts as a 2nd order low pass filter with a resonant peak, above which the output falls off a- 12dB/octave.

*The resonant peak of a humbucker wired in series mode is at a significantly lower value than that of it wired in parallel mode. This lower peak frequency boosts upper-middle frequencies whilst frequencies much above this frequency are filtered out.

*In parallel mode, each coil has a frequency response more like a single coil, with a much higher resonant peak frequency, which leaves the mid frequencies flat and boosts the treble frequencies. The low-pass filter effect only reduces frequencies at the very upper reaches of human hearing and above, so the sound is a lot brighter than that of the pickup in series-wired mode.

*If wired correctly, a parallel-wired humbucker retains its humbucking noise-cancelling attributes.

Hopefully I've explained in a general sense how the series and parallel modes on a humbucker give different sounds and different output levels. I knew some of this before, but I had to look a good bit up today, so I'm by no means an expert on this subject!

This is fabulous; thanks ever so much, Simon!

I've always found understanding pickup theory a little like a black art but this I can understand.... I will have to re-visit it a few times to nail it home, though!!

Thanks, too, Dave!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by corsair

Here we are, lads....

Tonerider ACII with a series/coil split/parallel switch where the tone pot used to be and the tone pot shifted to the old output socket spot.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps83bznzm6.jpg

The new headstock design....

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psb5znzrjw.jpg

... and as she is now,

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psstnpufo4.jpg


!!

---

That looks pretty sweet to me..... (an Ex Navy Aircraft Maintainer).....