Franken 51 inspired p bass wiring mod - help me decide...

Hi

So my next project will be a 51 p bass with some mods as follows:

Alder body from a blank
Maple fretboard neck 21 frets and 38mm jazz nut width
Wilkinson bridge and tuners
DiMarzio dp120 (model one) for neck pup
Seymour Duncan scpb quarter pounder for bridge (or p-position actually)

Classic styled or slightly modified control plate depending on what mods I plan to put in.

I was thinking of one volume and one tone knobs plus some kind of selector switch between them. Now my problem is deciding on what type of switch and selection to use. I know I want to be able to isolate just the sc and the humbucker by themselves - the DiMarzio in series to get fattest sound out of it. Keeping the system passive.

Now for the gurus like Weirdbits who have helped me tremendously with my previous build:

What would be in your opinion the best solution to get the pure isolated sound from both by themselves and yet find the best common wiring to work both pickups at the same time for versatility? 3-way switch or maybe even 5-way? Classic tele-type switch could easily be placed under the plastic pickguard or the modified steel control plate (havent designed it yet).

Challenges are the 21 fret neck which places both pickups slightly more towards the bridge than original 20 fret neck (this will also slightly change the appearance of the bass compared to original) maybe 1-2cm total. Also because the DM is wide I'll have to move the SD about 1cm closer to bridge to safely route the cavity apart from DM. These will also affect the tone of course. I could cut the overlapping part of the fretboard at the end to shorten the neck some but it could look somewhat odd... I'll think about it after I get the neck and take a look at it.

Some suggestions on what pots, caps etc to use and even diagrams would be much appreciated.

I will post on the Non PBG build thread after I get this thing planned and started.

I guess it depends on how you want it to look (ie. how it will look with a particular switch type) and then we can work out some wiring to work with that switch.

A lever switch between two knobs can sometimes be bit awkward, as if it's too close to the knobs it can be hard to flick quickly from each end of its throw. An angled lever switch position like on a strat but with the knob positions of a tele may be an option. If you do want to use a lever-style switch, I'd go with a 4-way switch as that will give you all the options you need. Wire it like a 4-way tele and you would have:
1. Bridge (SC)
2. Bridge (SC) + Neck (Hum) [in parallel]
3. Bridge (SC) X Neck (Hum) [in series]
4. Neck (Hum)

http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...2&d=1446389898

If you still have some of your On/On/On switches, you could add one of those as well and have the neck humbucker switchable between Series/Single Coil/Parallel (I think the DP120 is 4-wire).

http://www.buildyourownguitar.com.au...3&d=1446389954

Depending on how the pickups work together, their relative volumes etc, you may be better off with individual volumes (or maybe a concentric volume pot). 500K pots may help keep a bit of bright/snap in the sound, which could be useful with the DP120, or go with 250K's for a warmer tone if that's what you want. It's hard to tell what is needed or works best until you actually hear it in the bass.

Similar things can be done with 5-way switches or toggles... just pick your look and we can go from there.

Hi

You just don't stop to amaze me Scott! :)

As the pickups are different type and there's no telling how they will interact, I think I'll take the safest option. The quarter pounder is semi hot and more sensitive picking up the string vibration because of the wider poles ( I've read - can't tell from experience) so it might work better with the DP120's volume - just a hunch from reading about similar tries others have done. If the two are too far apart in properties - one might overwhelm the other and the end result might not be too flattering.

I think the 4-way switch might be the answer and would this work best with individual volume/tone controls? By those I presume you mean audio + linear pots for both? I also thought it would be best to use 500k pots cause the DP120 close to the neck would be quite muddy even though it's not like a real mudbucker. The quarter pounder is also more bassy than the scpb-1 whitch is closer to the original '51. I have 0,22 and 0,47 caps to choose from but from what I've read this would not make much difference in total tone.

I have a couple of 5-way switches in the mail and 3-ways at home. Haven't searched 4-ways but if they are common they will be available.

A friend of mine asked me to build him a strat so I'll be attacking my first 6-string also in the winter. Will have to put an order in for a PBG kit by the end of the year.

Huge thanks again - this made my day....

You could have master volume with master tone, or individual volumes with master tone or individual tones... it depends how you normally use a tone control. Linear or log taper for tone pots is again a matter of personal choice *and* what works best for a particular setup. Linear can sometimes be a bit too 'all or nothing' in some setups so a log taper can help to smooth that out, in other cases the constant rate of the linear will give finer control. It depends on the pickups, the interaction with the volume(s) and their values and how it's all wired... so, again, it's what works best for a particular setup rather than hard and fast rules.

Just had an idea, a little crazy, but... if you wanted to be really sneaky and keep the clean two knob '51 look but still have switching options you could try a S1 switch.

The Fender S1 switch is essentially a 250K or 500K pot with a 4PDT Push/Push switch embedded in it, activated by a push button on the top of the knob. Although they're most commonly seen on strats, it is possible to get Tele style knobs for them (I haven't purchased from there, just saw they were available).

If you were to use a 500K concentric pot for the volume (with a stacked Tele knob for individual pickup volume controls, which would control which pickup(s) is/are on) and a 500K S1 switch with a Tele knob for a master tone, you could mimic a 4-way lever's parallel/series switching options without needing the separate lever switch. You would still need the On/On/On mini-switch if you wanted series/split/parallel on the DP120 as well, but the S1 pot would give you some additional choices for the bass's appearance without needing large extra switches.

Of course, anything you can do with large toggle or lever switches or fancy S1's can also be done with mini-toggles or even push/pull pots, so it again comes back to how you want it to look.

I'll do a search on that S1 - the more I can keep it looking like the original the better. I hope to keep the vintage look on it but have to compromise some of course. Will be back... Thanks for the tip. As you know I'm open to crazy ideas.... ;)

Hi

Did some searching and decided to go with the 4-way tele type switch. The S1 seemed to have some issues in the long run of being unreliable.

Now I was wondering if it would be wise to use two volumes and two tones or could I use two volumes succesfully with one tone? Three knobs on the control plate would go well in one row if I made just a bit longer plate - say 1-1,5 cm longer than the original and it would still look almost the same. The switch would be placed angled like strat under the plastic guard somewhere in front of the plate and under the pups.

The bridge/parallel/series/neck setup sounds nice.

I ordered the Oak Grigsby 4-way switch for the build.

I think two volumes and a master tone would be a good choice, and will increase your range of sounds especially when the pups are combined. But, a master volume and master tone would be ok too if you just want to keep it at two knobs.

Speaking of which, if you use push/pulls for two of the pots you could have all of the switching combinations for the DP120 from just those without the need for a mini-switch. That is, both pots down, both up, #1 down #2 up, and #1 up #2 down gives you four combinations, so you can switch the DP120 between series, parallel, coil 1, coil 2. All the options without extra switches.

If you do go with three knobs and use a push/pull pot for that too you should be able to use it to switch the combined pickups between parallel and series, which would mean you could just use a standard 3-way lever or toggle switch instead of the Grigsby 4-way. Just another option for you.


Edit: Actually, if you used three push/pull pots you could probably do all the switching required without the need for any other switch at all. It would mean the volumes would control which pickup is heard (just like most basses) rather than switching them in/out of the circuit, but the parallel/series combos and all the DP120 options would be available. I'd need to sketch it out to be certain but I think it would work for what I have in mind.

Hi Scott

I was thinkin... I've ordered the Grigsby and want to use it like bridge, series, parallel, neck - combos. One tone and two volumes seem to be the choice for pot number.

Now - if I wanted to add just one more feature that would be to to switch the DP120 between parallel and series by itself. Could I pull this off by using a push-pull volume pot with it?

This way I would have more than enough choices for tone.

Still trying to find a bandsaw for the blank. Seems I have to find a local carpenter to get the body shape sawn...

Yep, a single push/pull pot will allow you to switch the DP120 between series and parallel. Two push/pulls will give the DP120 all its combinations, series/parallel/coil 1/coil 2.

The only issue with using two volumes with a 4-way switch is the 'bridge x neck' series setting, as the bridge volume will need to be on full and then the neck volume acts as a master volume (otherwise the bridge vol messes with both). Normally, for something like a two volume LP guitar, you would disconnect/bypass the bridge volume for a series setting, but you don't have that option when just using a 2-pole 4-way lever switch like the Grigsby.

The issue with the Grigsby is good to know so it's not a fault but a feature in this case.

I think I'll go with one push-pull pot. Just got the body sawn out of the blank - couldn't wait anymore... :)

Hi Weirdbits if you see this now...

The "Hemi" or now "Dirty ol' basstard"... Is in a stage where I have to begin planning the wiring job. I'm going for three pots - just one tone and two volumes with no push-pull option. Would you mind helping me with a diagram to connect these?

Neck, neck and bridge series, neck and bridge parallel, bridge
4-way Grigsby
Two volumes and one tone

Neck pup is DiMarzio DP120 or "model one"
Bridge pup is Seymour Duncan SCPB Quarter Pounder

The diagram you generously drew earlier had one volume and one tone and I'm soooo not good with these so would appreciate the help.

The DiMarzio will be connected without any coil split so it would be in series maybe...? The more powerful option.

Thanks a million if you can help.

Arzi

I'll try to get some time to draw up a layout tonight.

Huge thanks Scott! You're a lifa saver!

Hope to be able to return the favor somehow. :)

Addng an extra volume to the Tele 4-way circuit is a little awkward, as it kind of gets in the way for the series setting. I have a couple of ways to do it in mind, but both involve compromises.

I did some quick and dirty tests earlier tonight on both versions with a 4-way and the two volumes, just using clip leads and guitar pickups, on my one string tester. Both worked as intended, each works a little differently and has slightly different sounds... but, I emphasise, it was a rough test.

I'll draw up both versions for you to try, there's only small changes between them, but I didn't get time to do it tonight. Hopefully tomorrow.

No worries Scott. The aim is to finish the build during february. What's left are wooling the body, putting on bone nut, then final finishing touch on the different parts and then assembly and final adjustments. I do have some push-pull pots I ordered but can't remember their specs right now.

If you have some suggestions on how to work it I'm all ears - not fixed on anything specific as long as I can isolate the bridge and neck to work by themselves (vol + tone) then the other two options are just to get a different sound. If adding one push-pull would make the build somehow work better then that's what we have to do.

As promised, here are a couple of diagrams. I used yellow instead of white for the hot on the SD pickup (just easier), and I think the colours are correct for the DP120 (standard for DiMarzio). With each diagram the way the pots are configured in the relation the pickups is different, so they will sound slightly different. For example, having a bridge volume and a master volume will make the bridge pickup sound slightly different than if it just had one volume in the circuit etc. So, it's hard to say which version will work better with your particular build and pickups until you actually hear them.

Option 1:
Attachment 8279

Basically, it's the standard Tele 4-way layout but with a volume added for the bridge.

The downside is that the master volume affects all positions…which does a few things. First, even with bridge pup only selected in position 1 you'll have both the bridge volume and the master volume affecting the overall volume. In position 2, with both pickups in parallel, you can turn down the bridge in relation to the neck, but you can't turn down the neck relative to the bridge. In position 3, with both pickups in series, you really need to have the bridge volume on full and just use the master volume, so you can't change the volume of an individual pickup just the overall volume.

The links marked as (X) on the diagram, between the Tone pot and the Bridge Volume lug and between the Bridge Volume pot and Master Volume lug, are optional as the metal control plate will act as the ground conductor between the pots.

Option 2:
Attachment 8280

This version has the same Bridge volume but uses a bit of switch trickery to give you a hybrid Neck volume. Essentially, the ground connection on the Neck volume pot is only connected in positions 2 & 4. This means that in position 1 you get a Bridge Volume and the Neck Volume has no effect. In position 2, with both pickups in parallel, you have both a Bridge Volume and Neck Volume, allowing individual control of each pickup. Position 4, neck pickup only, you have a Neck Volume and the Bridge Volume has no effect.

In position 3, with both pickups in series, the Neck Volume works a little… differently. The volume is marked as 'Series Master' on the diagram, but it's sorta-kinda-not really a master volume. At full volume you get the full signal from the bridge and neck in series and as you turn it down it starts to drop the volume as you expect. But, as you keep turning it down, at a certain point is starts to reduce the effect of the neck pickup relative to the bridge and that continues down to zero volume. The pot is just acting as a resistor at this point, so at zero volume you get no neck and just the bridge but at a low volume, it won't shut off the volume completely. As with the previous diagram, you'll want the bridge volume on full in this setting.

The links marked as (X) on the diagram, between the Tone pot and the Bridge Volume lug and between the Bridge Volume pot and Neck Volume pot, are optional as the metal control plate will act as the ground conductor between the pots.


As you have some push/pull pots on the way and the DP120 is (should be) splittable, it would be quite easy to add that as an extra option for your sound. You just need to decide if you want to split the north or south coil, and connect the pickup to the push/pull first then continue on to the circuits above.

Attachment 8281

Hopefully there aren't too many glaring mistakes. As always, use at you own risk.

Whoah... That' alot of info... Have to decide what i do.

I now have the axe put together for pics and I'll try to post some today or tomorrow.

Thanks a lot Scott - you've been more than priceless. :)

Ok

I think I'll do this the safe way. I'll go with one volume and one tone plus I'll add the mini switch I still have to split the humbucler front/series/back. This way there will not be so many variables and surprises with the end result. Should be able to start soldering in a couple of days.

Tele 4-way layout with On/On/On mini-toggle giving North/Both/South coil options on the DP120 neck pickup:

Attachment 8332

The link marked (X) connecting the backs of the two pots is optional as the metal control plate will provide the ground link.

Damn Scott... I didn't expect a diagram on this but huge thanks! I was gonna apply the earlier diagrams for it but this makes it easier. :)