A question about tone...

OK team, we seem to have plenty of tone junkies on this site, and as many opinions on how to get it...

My question is this: Of what benefit is a nut designed for tone, like Tusq, Bone,whatever?

The reason I ask is this - A bone nut is only of benefit on open strings - anything fretted is against the frets, taking the nut out of play, and essentially creating a metal (the bridge) to metal (the fret)contact with the string.

Also, with the mixture of fretted and open notes in playing and/or chords, aren't you in fact getting a mixture of tones?

That being the case, wouldn't a stainless nut actually give a more consistent sound? Yes I agree this would probably lead to a brighter sound - but would it count all that much? I also agree that many aspects of the instrument go into making the tone and sound.

I am not trying to be a tool, it's a legit question I've pondered. I am fully open to any explanation.

Thanks!

You do have some valid points and questions, Stan.

Tone comes from a number of factors. The neck and body timber, headstock size and shape, the type of finish and the nut.

Personally, I have always been a fan of Bone, even when fretting a bone nut will give the Guitar a more mellow tone.. sounds crazy I know but years of experience tells me this.

If you want a bright sounding tone, go for a brass nut.

If you want a lifeless, morbid graveyard tone, go for Tusq or any synthetic nut...

Of course it always comes down to the individual ear, we all hear tone differently!

And of course when dealing with a newly set up guitar that you want to give that well played feel, or even a guitar that has been sitting for a few years unplayed! 72 hours on one of these will put that tone right back into the guitar! Swear by them! I do have 3!!


http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...3148-image.jpg
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...d93v-image.jpg

Any good on Electrics Gav?

Works on any six string guitar........acoustic, electric, arch tops, hollow bodies, the lot!

Hmmmm.... I feel an order at Stewmwacs coming on..

Hey Gav,I know you love these tonrite devices and they work well.

here's a link to anyone interested
http://tonerite.com/guitar/vmchk

Good news Lozza there is a uke model as well
http://tonerite.com/ukulele?redirected=1

I'm gonna be honest and say when I read about that thing^ it sounded like pure snake oil. After watching a few youtube vids, I think I want one.

Hardly any of the music stores locally seem to know about them, but they really do work. I run my guitars through them on rotation from time to time. Simply too many to try and play consitently!

interesting points, thanks

@Wokka. Nah. My ukes get a flogging on Thursday nights here
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-U...73236849474986
where I'm one of the teachers. Don't let that hammed up coconut vid fool you ;-)

Talking about nuts giving tone, the nut affects the vibration transfer to the wood in its own way. Sounds minor, but it really makes a difference. If you really want a super consistent sound, get a fret zero. This essentially is a fret instead of the nut so that there is absolutely no difference. It feels a little weird to play at first but you can adjust within a few minutes and youll have a perfectly consistent tone. Other nut materials give different tones depending on the guitar and they style but im really a fan of a tusq nut cos its gives a nice darker tone and works really well for non locking tremolos cos if you set it up right, youll stay in tune while going crazy in your trem.

Agreed that the nut absolutely affects the tone of an open string, but can someone please give me an explanation as to how the nut can possibly affect a fretted note, other than "it does" ?

It is not in play at all, it does not form a part of the vibrating part of the string, it doesn't affect vibration transfer to the neck, it all may be so - but how?

For example - if you barre across the 5th fret and play all the strings, then do the same and add a capo the the 3rd fret (barre still across the 5th), it sounds no different, I tried it, so how on earth does the nut composition affect it?

Thanks again, just trying to sift out some the the myth around guitar tone...

Gotta admit that I'm with you Stan. I know a lot of people swear that the nut still affects the tone of a fretted string but I'm afraid that it makes no sense to me.

The nut cannot affect the tone of anything but a genuine "open note".

Surprisingly, the strings do vibrate all the way to the nut even when fretted.
You can test this quite easily on a Bass string by fretting the note and gently touch the string with the back of your finger nail. you can feel the string vibrate.

Strings being made of metal, vibrate along their full length, setting up harmonics etc that resonate the headstock and nut, hence a brass nut will give a fretted note a brighter tone and a bone nut a more mellow tone.

Its all about metallic resonance vibey thing :)

That makes sense DB, but is that vibration, not over the pickup, that detectable that you could pick a bone nut vs a plastic nut on a fretted note just by listening? Really?

Is it because the combination of open and fretted notes sound more mellow due to nut composition (which I can certainly agree with), or does even a barre chord have a mellower sound - which I have more trouble with...

I agree that nut compostion affects tuning, stability, open note tone, sustain (another black art surrounded in myth and legend...), etc...

I would love to see some blind tests done with the same guitar with two different nuts and fretted notes. Not two similar guitars - but the same one... proper sound tests and oscilloscope readings - with results in the detectable hearing range.

Also that being the case, why doesn't everyone rush out and get bone saddles made as well? You could machine saddle rollers from bone or tusq, or corian, or graphite... wouldn't that make more sense - that way fretted and open notes would sound the same. Expensive, tricky and would wear - but if tone is the ultimate pursuit, then surely that is the definitive answer...

Paul from PRS explains it beautifully in this video.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3o2FHxz9O8

Stan, in answer to your question as to why dont many Luthiers use Bone for Bridges...

The main reason why most Electric Luthiers dont use bone bridges is because basically the CUSTOMER wants a this or a that brand bridge.

My top end builds ALL have bone bridges... See pics below.

These Bass Guitars have been played by quite a few Professional Bass players and they all say the same thing.
THE TONE!
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...n-IMG_2625.JPG
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...1-IMG_2627.JPG
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-con...0-IMG_1105.JPG

Great vid Gav, thanks.

However, all it really explained was that different nut materials have different tonal properties - absolutely no argument there.
I also agree that the composition of the guitar will have tonal effect of the guitar in an acoustic sense.

But I am wondering about effect on fretted notes by the nut whilst played amplified.

Love or hate Scott Grove, here is another version of the same argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtnx-gnMrTQ

Now I'm not necessarily on his side either, but I'm yet to be convinced either way nut composition affects a fretted note...

This is an excellent discussion point though.

Hey DB just saw your answer - now this makes all the sense in the world to me - bone at both ends means both open and fretted notes are influenced by the bone. This I get and this I believe would make a lot of difference. Beautiful guitars by the way.

But back to the original thought - bone at one end only - any influence on a fretted note?

Thanx Stan, those two Basses are my best builds to date.
I have never been able to part with the Violin Bass... she is perfect for playing the Blues :)

With the origional question, yes, IMHO, different nut materials will make the tone change.

But it may be one of those great unanswered questions... get ten Guitarists to play the same instrument with different nut combos and half of them will pick the difference between a bone and brass nut, the other five wont.

It is all about how we hear tone and also the individual tonal preference comes into play.

We could go on forever, but maybe the answer you seek will come with experimentation.
Grab yourself a brass nut, try it out then swap it for a bone then synthetic one.
Who knows? you may be surprized as to what you hear, and with each Guitar the results will be different as there are so many different factors that come into play..
Timber, string through body or bridge, headstock size and shape, the list goes on...

But, at the end of the day, I will always maintain that a natural material such as bone will always improve the tone, regardless of what bridge.
It seems to my ear that a bone nut balances out the metallic tone of the bridge and gives the Guitar a more balanced and warmer tone.

DB where have those been hiding - never seen any of them - not wanting to blow smoke up your ...., but both deserve to be in the Beautiful Guitar thread... In fact...

Hahaha, Thanx Bman :)

Next time you come over I will drag the Violin Bass out for you to have a play...

The other one, known as "Mr Tims Bass of Extreme Sexiness" belongs to none other than our very own Mr Tim... builder of the YB 4 Midnight Bass..
This was Mr Tims design, Ash body with a Spalted Black Sassafrass top, a single EMG HZ pup hidden under the top with bone floating bridge and string through.

He very nearly wasnt allowed to take it home ;)

This is the debate that has been known to polarise many a forum. It makes sense to many that when you fret a note the only material involved is the bridge and the particular fret being pressed. However, this isn't entirely true and fretting a note isn't always the entire movement on the fretboard. So whether you believe that the nut is eliminated by fretting a note or not, it is important to accept that a guitar is an instrument of precision...it should be if it is crafted correctly. A nut is no less important in the whole sum of the sound in terms of pitch and tuning. Yes, you may be fretting notes higher up that the nut has no direct effect on tone other than harmonics but think how fast your fingers are fretting and pulling off leaving notes to ring open which you would have to agree the nut does effect? Hence, it possibly more down to playing style to determine the inherent tonal value of replacing the nut material to derive tonal enhancements. Now lets talk about whether or not the fretboard material makes a difference to your tone! ;)

great conversation guys, and nice that it stays friendly. I have no agenda, just some musings.

To me it sounds a bit like a question of perception. And if you perceive, then it is...

Also a bone nut would have other differences and advantages that enhance the playability, and from that aspect alone would be worth it.

As for fretboard material, I'm willing to say yes to that one - at all stages of playing it comes into play. Also tone and sound are a vibration and quality of vibration/resonance that can be heard. If the fretboard vibrates slightly differently depending on material, then the transmitted sounds will sure have some of those qualities...

The tone of a guitar is produced by the strings of a guitar. How these strings vibrate will affect tone. What influences the vibration of the strings will therefore ultimately affect tone.
This is where it gets interesting with guitars and the discussion around tone, because if you think about it, the fretboard is never 'in play' in that the strings are resting on three points with a fretted note, namely the bridge, the fret and the nut. But since the fret is wedged into the soundboard it makes sense that the energy or vibration will be affected by the hardness or otherwise of the fretboard. And this is true because as many will attest that the tonal quality of an ebony fretboard versus maple or rosewood is superior. Again there is a debate because people like different tonal qualities along the spectrum of bright to warm.
The question that now arises, is does the fretboard vibrate because of the action of pressing down onto a fret or will it vibrate regardless. Easy answer, it will vibrate regardless, as in the open position, the strings are making contact with the bridge and the nut, in the fretted position its all three points that vibrate. This vibration is energy. The strings are vibrating, the fretboard, neck and body vibrate, so too is the nut and the saddles/bridge.all of these therefore HAVE to have an effect on what is being produced above the pickup both before, during and after any note is fretted. Consider if you will for a moment what would happen if the nut was made of rubber. The tonal quality would be much 'duller'.
So every component of the guitar involved with the strings is going to affect the tone of the guitar in some way. However, it should also be clear that tone is sometime simply down to personal preference and that too much tone enhancement towards warmth or brightness could lead to an unintended result where the tone is too shrill/bright or too warm/thud!

I concurr with the Gavmeister on fretboard material changing tone.

Take a classic Tele with a Rock Maple fretboard. These seem to have more of a bell like chime to the tone whereas a Rosewood fretboard has a slightly warmer sound.

Then there is Ebony and a whole plethora of hard woods, these all have their own tonal qualities.

We can start on the subject of Amplifiers...... Valve or PCB...... And how these affect the tone as well.... Or are we now delving into semantics?

easy really - everything in some way affects tone, guitars, amps , humidity, size and shape of venue, Saturn...