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Forum people, we've had this post to Facebook and I thought I would move it to here to get your thoughts:
"Ok, I'm having trouble with my neck on an lp1. I've done the measurement from the nut to the 12th and it's 313mm, when I did the measurement from the 12th to the saddle it's 316mm and I cannot shorten it any more as the neck is in all the way. Any ideas? And how much will this affect it?"
Nick Cass.
Any thoughts on Nick's best course of action?
This may not actually be a problem as you need to compensate for string height and thickness at the saddle. I use a specially made jig which measures the distance from the 12th fret to the nut, which you then swing around 180 degrees and measure to the bridge with two markers that extend beyond the measurement by approximately 3mm to compensate for string height above the frets!
When you fret a string somewhere along the fretboard, you actually sharpen that string’s pitch by a tiny amount. To compensate for this, each string is made a little bit longer than the instrument’s actual scale length, thereby ‘flattening’ its pitch. The amount that each string is made longer (flattened) depends on that strings size – thin strings not much and getting progressively more as the strings get thick....
I'm going to go for the obvious. That's normally a good place to start.
Adam, how do those measurements compare to yours?
The nut to 12th fret is correct. So for the 12th fret to bridge:
Where is he measuring to? Is he measuring to the centre of the bridge between the 3rd & 4th saddle? Where abouts on the fret is he measuring from?
Is his bridge the right way around? Yes, I am serious (and stop calling me Shirley).
Is he measuring on the plane of the fretboard so he's not losing distance by having his measuring stick droop? (meaning the straight line of the fretboard continues up to the bridge). Is the bridge wound up on the studs to roughly playing height?
As Gavin said, a couple of mmm isn't a whole lot to worry about. If I was building it, 3mm would be approaching a bit much for my comfort.
(I've goy some numbers in my head which I'm guessing are wrong, but a correctly intonated LP is about 1/32" long on high e, and about 1/8 long on low E which is why the bridge is angled. Don't quote me on those numbers. I'll try and find them when I get my new reading glasses.)
If I had to pick one thing, I'd concentrate on the bridge, not the neck.
One thing he must be careful of. As he winds the saddles back and forth to get intonation, the strings cannot touch anything on the bridge except the saddles. If they run on anything else, you've got an earful of crap coming out of your speakers.
I had a similar problem with my LP.
The stud holes were defiantly out by 3 mm. Or so I thought...
Dmac and Adam will probably wnt to reach through their computor screens and slap me around the head, but I trimmed 3mm off the end of the neck.
BAD MOVE!, but I am so used to building Basses and have not encountered this before, so I used boy logic and was wrong! :P
When I later assembled and went to intonate, the saddles on the bottom 3 strings had to be wound right back, and it still wasn't right. :?
I had to turn the saddles around to rectify the problem.... slap me again....
So I am guessing that there is not a problem with the length at all.. it is just one of those things that seems to be a problem until you put it all together.
Consider yourself slapped!!!Quote:
Quote from dingobass on November 6, 2012, 23:08[/b]
I had a similar problem with my LP.
The stud holes were defiantly out by 3 mm. Or so I thought...
Dmac and Adam will probably wnt to reach through their computor screens and slap me around the head, but I trimmed 3mm off the end of the neck.
BAD MOVE!, but I am so used to building Basses and have not encountered this before, so I used boy logic and was wrong! :P
When I later assembled and went to intonate, the saddles on the bottom 3 strings had to be wound right back, and it still wasn't right. :?
I had to turn the saddles around to rectify the problem.... slap me again....
So I am guessing that there is not a problem with the length at all.. it is just one of those things that seems to be a problem until you put it all together.
:D
Damn! Busted my ipad screen!
Thanks Gavin, I deserved that! :D
We live and learn, and as we learn we discover that when you think something aint right, ASK SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!!!!!
Oh well, one thing is for certain, I won't ever go off half cocked again!, Especially when there is advice available right here from people that know what they are doing....
Can't wait for the Bass kits to arrive. Then I will be totally in my element :D
Me too DB, a Fender Precision or Jazz will be just the thing! I have been hanging onto some oversized pickups for this build in anticipation!
I did hear a rumor about there being a Beatle Bass in the wings.... Noice!Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 16:41
Me too DB, a Fender Precision or Jazz will be just the thing! I have been hanging onto some oversized pickups for this build in anticipation!
In that case I hope Adam has ordered two!! I'll kindly concede the first one to you!Quote:
Quote from dingobass on November 7, 2012, 17:38
I did hear a rumor about there being a Beatle Bass in the wings.... Noice!Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 16:41
Me too DB, a Fender Precision or Jazz will be just the thing! I have been hanging onto some oversized pickups for this build in anticipation!
Yep, I ordered a few of the Hofner style kits. These will be due mid-December.Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 19:44
In that case I hope Adam has ordered two!! I'll kindly concede the first one to you!Quote:
Quote from dingobass on November 7, 2012, 17:38
I did hear a rumor about there being a Beatle Bass in the wings.... Noice!Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 16:41
Me too DB, a Fender Precision or Jazz will be just the thing! I have been hanging onto some oversized pickups for this build in anticipation!
Cool! Can't wait to see that one!,Quote:
Quote from adam on November 7, 2012, 20:52
Yep, I ordered a few of the Hofner style kits. These will be due mid-December.Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 19:44
In that case I hope Adam has ordered two!! I'll kindly concede the first one to you!Quote:
Quote from dingobass on November 7, 2012, 17:38
I did hear a rumor about there being a Beatle Bass in the wings.... Noice!Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 7, 2012, 16:41
Me too DB, a Fender Precision or Jazz will be just the thing! I have been hanging onto some oversized pickups for this build in anticipation!
Did I hear right that the LP1s have a Spalted top on them Adam?
I am dribbling like a hungry Staffy with anticipation! :D
Yep, there's an LP-1 with a spalted maple top, they're here in Fremantle as I write. Quarantine have been sniffing around, but once they're inspected I'll be able to start shipping (after photographing). I'll warn you now DingoBass, they've got a bolt-on neck.
I've also got some ST-1 models coming with Maple fretboard. These are due mid December. I forget who asked for these, perhaps it was dMac.
Nice one Adam!Quote:
Quote from adam on November 8, 2012, 07:29
Yep, there's an LP-1 with a spalted maple top, they're here in Fremantle as I write. Quarantine have been sniffing around, but once they're inspected I'll be able to start shipping (after photographing). I'll warn you now DingoBass, they've got a bolt-on neck.
I've also got some ST-1 models coming with Maple fretboard. These are due mid December. I forget who asked for these, perhaps it was dMac.
No problem here with bolt on necks :D
dMac will be happy with the maple fretboard...
Was this resolved?Quote:
Quote from adam on November 6, 2012, 15:43
Forum people, we've had this post to Facebook and I thought I would move it to here to get your thoughts:
"Ok, I'm having trouble with my neck on an lp1. I've done the measurement from the nut to the 12th and it's 313mm, when I did the measurement from the 12th to the saddle it's 316mm and I cannot shorten it any more as the neck is in all the way. Any ideas? And how much will this affect it?"
Nick Cass.
Any thoughts on Nick's best course of action?
Yes, dmac, Nick is sorted now. I've seen a photo of his LP-1 and it looks pretty awesome. He's sending me some better photos and I'll post them on the Guitar of the Month Forum.Quote:
Quote from dmac on November 8, 2012, 07:46
Was this resolved?Quote:
Quote from adam on November 6, 2012, 15:43
Forum people, we've had this post to Facebook and I thought I would move it to here to get your thoughts:
"Ok, I'm having trouble with my neck on an lp1. I've done the measurement from the nut to the 12th and it's 313mm, when I did the measurement from the 12th to the saddle it's 316mm and I cannot shorten it any more as the neck is in all the way. Any ideas? And how much will this affect it?"
Nick Cass.
Any thoughts on Nick's best course of action?
Hi all, sorry for the slow reply I am having trouble posting from my iphone and tablet.
The problem is resolved and neck now firmly(fingers crossed) in place.
been working on intonation as we speak. So thanks all again and will upload pics soon.
Nick
Cool, Nick, and welcome! Look forward to seeing the new device!Quote:
Quote from ncass81 on November 8, 2012, 11:02
Hi all, sorry for the slow reply I am having trouble posting from my iphone and tablet.
The problem is resolved and neck now firmly(fingers crossed) in place.
been working on intonation as we speak. So thanks all again and will upload pics soon.
Nick
Just for the FAQ (the one Adam is compling, right, Adam? :D :D :D ) what was the solution?
I'm not sure there really was a problem dmac. He was 3mil out when putting the neck on. In the context of intonation and string bend, 3 mil is probably about right. Our Forum is searchable and this topic is in the right sub-forum so it should be easy to find if someone else has the same 'problem'.Quote:
Quote from dmac on November 8, 2012, 13:41
Cool, Nick, and welcome! Look forward to seeing the new device!Quote:
Quote from ncass81 on November 8, 2012, 11:02
Hi all, sorry for the slow reply I am having trouble posting from my iphone and tablet.
The problem is resolved and neck now firmly(fingers crossed) in place.
been working on intonation as we speak. So thanks all again and will upload pics soon.
Nick
Just for the FAQ (the one Adam is compling, right, Adam? :D :D :D ) what was the solution?
Guys, this isnt a problem. Its guitar 101 stuff! the 3mm extra from the 12th fret to the bridge is purposefully offset. Search google for "bridge compensation" and the like and you will find more info on this. As you pressdown on a string it bends and you slightly alter the string length, therefore you need to alter the scale length slightly owing to this. This is why you have six saddles to adjust to get perfect intonation!
See my earlier post :D
Gavin, while it's 101 stuff to you, not every Pit Bull customer here knows this.Quote:
Quote from Gavin1393 on November 8, 2012, 14:06
Guys, this isnt a problem. Its guitar 101 stuff!
See my earlier post :D
It's nice to have this documented; it's often best to have the original person with the problem document the "fix." That way more people get involved and not just a few. It is also useful for it to be present somewhere if it's not mentioned in the docs, or until it's mentioned in the docs.
BTW, I'm a Buzz Feiten system installer. (There's only two retrofitters in NSW : http://buzzfeiten.com/dealers/asia/asiaan.htm I really should get my details updated. It's been a few months...) You forgot about how the striking of the strings also creates stretching, increasing the scale length and increasing pitch. So the questions now include whether you tune to attack or decay? Tune open A to 110Hz on attack, then tune it to 110Hz on decay, and see which is more pleasing to the ear. Then try all the As on your fretboard to a tuner that shows Hz and see how many of them are on a correct derivation of 440Hz.
It is impossible to play Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier" on a guitar in a standard setup. There's heaps I can add to this whole concept of tuning and intonation which can be left out as too complex, but I will ask you why do you think most LP players tune down half a step?
Hey dMac... I have heard about the Buzz system.. is it really as good as they say?Quote:
BTW, I'm a Buzz Feiten system installer. Much better intonation.
(There's only two retrofitters in NSW : http://buzzfeiten.com/dealers/asia/asiaan.htm
I really should get my details updated. It's been a few months...)
From what I can gather it is similar to having a zero fret...Is this right?
Hey, DingoBassQuote:
Quote from dingobass on November 8, 2012, 18:09
Hey dMac... I have heard about the Buzz system.. is it really as good as they say?Quote:
BTW, I'm a Buzz Feiten system installer. Much better intonation.
(There's only two retrofitters in NSW : http://buzzfeiten.com/dealers/asia/asiaan.htm
I really should get my details updated. It's been a few months...)
From what I can gather it is similar to having a zero fret...Is this right?
If you want to see if it works for you, there's an email address you can use on the above page where I can give you a rough trick that gives you an idea if it works. p.s. I've moved from Elderslie... :D
It changes individual intontation, adjusts individual scale length, and for tuning flattens a couple of strings, sharpens a couple of others. It's not a blanket change. And you need a tuner like a Petterson or Planet Waves (unless I teach you the tuning trick).
What it looks at:
If you tune a guitar to have a perfectly sounding barre A chord on the 5th fret, it sounds nice playing the chord. Now without changing anything, play a barre D on the 5th fret. Sounds like crap. A guitar can't be tuned like, say, a piano, which is why I mentioned Bach (that was the piece that demonstrated for the first time Tempered Tuning. I had to do a friggin' Powerpoint on that. Wow...).
Is it any good? I use it on my strat, the Telecowster, and probably on Junior. I don't use it on my Godin or 335 because they sound alright for the purposes I use them. People I've played with used it. Washburn use it on a lot of their gear, and they say: "Fans of the system include Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Liona Boyd and Andy Summers." (Where's my name? :D ) Horses for courses. Some people like it, others don't.
There's another guy who now does necks where each fret is staggered (not in a fan shape, in a step shape) which Vai uses on a couple of axes, but the neck last I heard was over $1k. I'm not that good!