What glue should I use to set my kit neck as the shop is out of stock?
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What glue should I use to set my kit neck as the shop is out of stock?
I'm not 100% sure, as I haven't built a set neck only screw ons, but I'm fairly any good quality PVA would do it, google it and see what it says. Titebond is another or Gorilla wood glue Im any high strength wood glue should do it, just remember, be prepared to clamp it for a few days.
Original Titebond (the red label one). It's the de facto standard for modern guitar building.
Avoid Titebond 2 and 3 as whilst they are stronger and waterproof, the original is as strong as you need and if you do ever need to unglue a joint, you can do it with steam and/or heat. With the others you need a lot more heat and you'll do a lot more damage.
It's a PVA-based glue but with extra contents that make it a bit stronger than standard PVA, but more importantly a bit harder, so better for transferring vibrations.
A more traditional option is hide glue. It's less convenient to use, but it does give a very hard joint. It does get brittle as it ages, but that's over a very long time.
Don't use Gorilla wood glue on any joint you may need to take apart, because you won't. It certainly has its uses, but gluing a guitar neck isn't one of them.
And Titebond should be clamped for 24 hours for a neck joint or any joint that will be under significant stress. More general gluing requires 1 hour of clamping. (Both Titebond's recommendations).
You can get glue from Pitbull which is as same at titebond. Or use Tite bond 1 or Titebond 2. Never use Titebond 3. The titebond should be applied to both surfaces and clamped with 2 clamps for 24rs
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Thanks for that on the glue. Forgive my ignorance but do hollow body electrics need copper shielding tape. I can't see where it would go?
No, there’s nowhere you can usefully stick it.
On an ES-1 (edit; see later post as I see its a GR-1SF you'll be making), the longest cable runs are from the pickups to the volume pots and they will be shielded.
Short wire runs will pick up minimal noise, so you can get away with single wires between pots etc. You can certainly use shielded cable for the longer inter-pot runs if you want to, but I don’t think it will make any real-world difference.
The pickups are always the most prone to gather noise, but the kit pickups are a) humbuckers, so remove most of the noise they pick up and b) are covered types, so have extra shielding.
If you plan to fit aftermarket pickups, then if uncovered types, the pickup cavities could benefit from extra shielding, though you’d need to run ground wires to the copper.
Thanks that's helpful. I'm thinking of just doing a clear True Oil finish on mine, however, if there are grain holes like I've seen in some photos, I may need to do some clear filler. Do you think that would be compatible with a clear True Oil finish?
Tru-oil will go over Timbermate filler!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewis Woolcock
I used some Timbermate - pine coloured filler on my tele bass and that worked OK.
I also filled some large knots with some CA glue (supaglue), so it looks like it is resin filled, and covered them with tru-oil.
I'd look at this build diary for a natural GR-1SF/TruOil finish.
Unless it's a special edition, it will have a basswood ply body which doesn't need grain filling. The only areas that might need filling are around the neck join and possibly around the edges of the top and back where the wood meets the binding if the edges have splintered a bit.
The GR-1SF has a much larger wiring harness than the ES-1 due to the way Gretsch sprinkled the controls round the body.
For this guitar, it's probably worth investing in some single score screened cable, either Gibson-style braided or one with a plastic sheath.
Here's the Pit Bull wiring diagram for the GR-1SF. https://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-co...PBG-GR1-SF.pdf
Only the neck and bridge volume pots are close together, the others require cable runs of maybe 45-50cm, so these lengths are more likely to pick up hum and noise and are better off having screened cable. The screen can either be connected at both ends to provide a ground link to a pot or switch, or just grounded at one end to provide a screen fro the signal cable within. You just want to avoid creating big loops of ground connections (as these are more prone to noise).
But we can deal with that once you've got your kit and are further on with the build.
I'm soon to receive my kit and start sanding. I assume the Basswood veneer only needs light sanding. My question is, do I mask up the binding or do these get sanded and coated with oil also? I'm hoping to use a clear hardwax oil by "Whittle" called Evolution. Can I use this oil on the fretboard?
The basswood veneer should need minimal to no sanding.
It is normal practice to mask binding when applying colour coats like stain or paint, but to cover it with any clear finish.
I’ve got no experience with wax oil finishes on guitars. The normal ‘oil’ finishes are polymerising, so you get a hard sealed surface. They will also stick to binding. None of the main ingredients mentioned for ‘Evolution’ seem to be polymerising so it may just wipe off the plastic whilst being absorbed by the wood. It’s not a finish I’ve seen used before on a build here.
If you’ve already got some, then you could try getting hold of a small sheet of maple or basswood veneer and trying it out on that to get a good idea of the type of finish you’ll get on a closed-pore wood.
It’s not standard practice to put finish over a rosewood or ebony fretboard. It certainly wouldn’t be very Gretsch-like. Rickenbacker are the only guitar company that I know who put a clear finish on rosewood boards. It’s more normal to apply lemon oil or mineral oil (chopping board oil) on rosewood or ebony fretboards (or any dark wood fretboard) to replace lost moisture, darken the finish and help prevent the board from shrinking over time.
But it’s up to you if you want to apply it. Some people like glossy fretboards, some don’t. It’s as simple as that.
Thanks Simon that's very helpful.
I have some 4m (over 60 strand shielded) wire. It's heavy duty cable used for dc solar, probably aluminium stands. Any value in using this instead of the standard kit wire on my build?
I’m not at all familiar with that type of wire. Have you got more details on it? ‘4m’ on a web search is only giving me a 4m length of cable.
If it is aluminium, then you can’t use normal solder, it’s probably designed to use crimped or screwed terminals. And aluminium has 30% the conductivity of copper. So for power distribution you end up with bigger diameter cables to carry the same amount of current that a copper cable would. But cost-wise, I know that a few years ago the price of copper was such that equivalent capacity aluminium cables were cheaper, so were becoming popular again.
You don’t need heavy duty cable for guitars. Remember that all the current generated by the pickup will be travelling along very very thin 42 to 44 AWG wire in the pickup coil.
There’s certainly better wire to use than the wire that comes with the kit. That has a very basic PVC insulation which shrinks back from heat when soldering, so it’s easy to have exposed bare wires on solder joints, and on items like pots and switches it’s all too easy to have enough exposed to be a signal shorting risk, especially as the wire is very flexible so will move under vibration.
I prefer to use cloth-covered ‘push-back’ wire for running short single cable lengths, and braided push-back wire for longer lengths where a shielded cable is better (and also convenient for running a ground connection). The push-back wire is also stiff enough to be bent and remain bent, so you can ‘dress’ the wire to follow a certain route and so keep it out of the way of other wires. You can’t di that with more flexible wire, so complex wiring schemes can get very messy and tangled if you aren’t careful.
Whilst there are many ways to make a control harness for a Les Paul style guitar, I do point people at the Six Strings Supplies videos for an example of how to do it well.
https://youtu.be/ZWxz2Ytjk0k?list=PL...feature=shared
Worth looking at the other videos on the site as well for inspiration.
aluminium
I have some Grover tuners (machine heads) on an old Epiphone. Do you think it's worth using these on my GR-1SF build or should I stick to the tuners supplied with the kit?
Tuners that came with kit are very average. They do the job but not very durable. Some use it and some upgrade. Depends on your budgetQuote:
Originally Posted by Lewis Woolcock
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I find the kit tuners to generally be OK, and a lot better than tuners that often came on budget guitars 20 or more years ago. They have a decent gear ratio (normally 15:1) and are generally well made.
Things to check are:
1) How evenly they turn. Give each one enough turns so the tuning post makes a full rotation. The force required to turn the tuner button should remain the same throughout the rotation, not hard at some points and almost no resistance at others.
2) Tuning peg tightness. First check that between the tuner button and the tuner body there’s a metal washer and a plastic one. I have seen tuners where the plastic washer is missing; either because it wasn’t added during assembly or because it’s split under pressure and fallen off.
The tuner button is held on to the tuner button shaft by a screw. You should be able to adjust the screw so each tuner button has the same resistance to turning. You don’t want it so loose it vibrates, but not so tight that it’s really hard to turn the button. It’s the plastic washer that’s being compressed between the button and the body of the tuner. If it’s missing the tuner has minimal resistance to turning and it will feel very loose and be much easier to accidentally catch and knock out of tune when tuning adjacent strings.
If those two things are OK, then the tuners will perform well. If not, then you can repair 2) by replacing with washers from another set of similar tuners if you have a spare set from another build as they seem to be a universal size.
You can live with some unevenness for 1), but I know I’d be looking to replace them.
So after those basic checks it comes down to whether you want to fit new tuners, either because you want a tuner that better gear ratio (some guitar ones have 18:1 ratios or more, which means it’s easier to adjust the tuning when almost at pitch), or offers extra functionality (like a locking tuner), or you want a tuner thats either vintage looking or closer to those fitted on the original.
The guitar kits all come with 10mm diameter tuner holes, suitable for ‘modern’ tuners with a screw-down from the top fixing nut and an anti-rotation screw on the rear of the headstock. To fit more vintage-style tuners with push-in bushings that are fixed in place by screws on the rear of the headstock, you’ll need to make sure the tuners come with 10mm adapter bushings, as the vintage bushings generally require an 8.8mm hole. Also make sure the bushings have the right internal hole diameter, as some vintage tuners have 6mm posts, some 6.25mm.
For six-in-line Fender-style headstocks it’s not worth thinking about fitting vintage-style split-post tuners unless you are prepared to plug and re-drill the tuner holes as the kit hole spacing isn’t correct for them and the holes invariably aren’t in a straight line.
If going fit a more authentic look, Gretsch have used different style tuners over the years and on different models. Some were Grovers with stepped buttons or a modified ‘butter bean’ button, and sometimes open-geared tuners. Gretsch sell tuners, but Wilkinson also do Gretsch-style tuners at a lower price and you’ll undoubtedly find some cheaper still on AliExpress. Just keep in mind the tuner hole diameter and the possible need for adapter bushings.
I am a little late to the party, but it occurred to me that you could use guitar/instrument cable or even TV coax. It's overkill, but I think the wiring diagram is simple enough that it would work. Ground/shield to metal on pots, and switches. Inner wire to "hot." I did something similar on a ES 335 style body. It's dead quiet. That may be because it has relatively short runs as Simon says. Yours has much longer runs. The nice thing about this sort of wire is that the stiffness can help you get it to go where it needs to go. That was a big challenge on my semi hollows. Might be a trifle easier on a fully hollow body like yours. Both are easy to solder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewis Woolcock
On another ES guitar, I have used wire braid tubes. It worked, but it seemed like a better idea in the beginning at the end. Getting wire to run through the tube is a pain. I also had to get pretty creative with the cut ends to keep them from fraying. I'd do the coax or guitar cable again. I think I'd try it naked before and see if it hums before I'd use the wire mesh again.
I am wondering if there is a difference between neck pickup and bridge pickup? Are both Humbuckers the same? I have already done the wiring loom and have assumed both are the same from a wiring viewpoint.
Wiring yes, but the bridge pickup should have more windings on it than the neck pickup, to make up for the fact that the string amplitude at the bridge pickup position is less than at the neck pickup position.
If both pickups were exactly the same, then you'd get a lower output from the bridge pickup. So the bridge pickup in a matched set normally has around 10% more windings on it to increase the output so it's similar to the neck pickup. As more windings = more coil resistance, if you measure the pickup resistance with a multimeter, the bridge pickup should have a higher resistance. Because the pickup is a coil, has resistance and also has some capacitance, the actual resistance at audio frequencies will vary according to frequency, so the multimeter reading, which used a small DC voltage to measure the resistance, is known as the DC resistance, or 'DCR'. This is the figure you'll see quoted when people say 'This pickup measures 9.8k', or 'This pickup measures 14.5k'.
In general, a higher DCR indicates more output (it also depends on the magnet type used). But the coil wire size also comes into play here. Most vintage spec (and many other) pickups use 42AWG wire. But a coil bobbin can only accommodate so many turns of wire on it before it's full. So to get more turns and more output, you use thinner wire. Higher output pickups often use 43AWG wire, and some really high output pickups even use 44AWG wire. The bigger the AWG (American Wire Gauge) number, the thinner the wire.
Whilst different manufacturer's wire has slightly different resistance figures per unit length, on average, going up an AWG number increases the wire resistance by an extra 27%. So if we have two pickups with the same number of turns as each other, but one has 42AWG wire and one has 43AWG wire, then the output will be the same but if the 42AWG one has a 10k ohm DCR, then the other will have around a 12.7k ohm DCR.
As thinner wire is more fragile and more likely to break when being wound, manufacturers normally use the thickest wire they can, so the thinner wire is normally used on the hotter pickups that need more coil turns.
So, you need to consider this when comparing pickup DCRs and you really need to know what gauge wire the pickup has been wound with if you are trying to work out how much extra output one pickup has over another. A 42AWG 8.2k DCR pickup may seem to have a lot less output than another one quoted at 11.2k, but if the 11.2k pickup is a 43AWG one, then the increase in output isn't 40% as it may first appear, but 10%, as (allowing for the higher wire resistance) it's equivalent in the number of turns it has to a 42AWG pickup with a 9k DCR.
Comparing DCRs is not an exact science, as there are other factors to consider, but it is certainly indicative.
So, if you have two otherwise identical looking pickups and you want to know which one is best in the neck position, get a multimeter, measure the pickup resistances and the lowest DCR one will be best suited for the neck position.
If they get installed the other way round, then nothing catastrophic happens, but the neck pickup will have more output than the bridge, so they won't sound very balanced, and you'll need the bridge pickup set close to the strings and the neck pickup set away from the strings If there is an imbalance, it's more common for the bridge pickup to have more output than the neck pickup. The classic humbucker combination of a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge and a '59 or a Jazz in the neck position is like that.
The kit humbucker pickups I've measured are generally a well-matched set, with one pickup having a DCR that's 5-10% greater than the other. They are generally on the powerful side, with a DCR in the 9-10k area and their ceramic magnets up the output compared to the alnico magnets you'd find in a more vintage-style humbucker. So I've always gone for aftermarket pickups where I've got the choice of how they sound.
Thanks for that, looks like I fluked the right pickups in the right position. The wiring diagram I have is called "alternative 2 humbucker,4 pots, 3 way switch diagram. Is there a standard (not alternative) diagram? If so what is the difference?
That’s the right one for the GR1-SF.
The other is for a Les Paul/SG style arrangement where each pickup has its own tone and volume control. The Gretsch-style wiring has a volume per pickup, then master volume and master tone controls. Same number of pots and switches, but a very different arrangement of them. With the distributed pot locations on the GR1-SF, the LP style wouldn’t work that well (though if you never use the tone controls, then it could be an option).
LP-style diagram: https://www.pitbullguitars.com/wp-co...m4Pot%20v5.pdf
Thanks for all your help. My build is going well, very pleased with the True Oil finish after 8 coats. Having problems with my wiring??
I have used shielded wire and earthed the wires where possible. I have no signal to my wiring loom from the test amp. Tried the amp with another guitar and it works perfectly. There is no signal at the input, no buzz when I touch the end of the input plug. I have checked my wires a number of time and it seems ok. There is nothing happening at both pickups when I plug the loom in. I checked the wires with a multimeter and they seem to check out ok. I suspect there is something simple wrong??? Any suggestions?
It’s either a missing wire, a signal wire touching a ground connection or a bad solder joint.
Measure the resistance between the signal and ground connections on the jack socket with no jack plugged in. With no signal, it’s either going to be no resistance (a short), or an overload reading (open circuit).
Given that you can touch the tip of the jack plug when it’s plugged in with no buzzing, then it sounds like a signal short to ground. Check with the selector switch in all three positions.
First just double-check that you have all the volume pots turned up fully, including the master volume. I’ve tested for a short circuit before only to find a pot was turned down, not up!
Then look for loose wire strands at solder joints reaching across to touch a grounded item, like a pot casing. Is a signal wire poking through a pot tab too long and is touching the pot casing? If you’ve used push-back braid shielded wire, then has the braid slid forward so it’s touching a connection (I’ve had that before as well). And is a braid shield touching a signal connection?
If everything else checks out, then I’d suspect the selector switch may be faulty. Those box switches are fine when they work, but when they fail they tend to fail completely and short all the signals to ground. And of course you can’t see the workings (which is why I much prefer the open-style lever switches). You’d want to unsolder the wires to it to test if any of the switch contacts were internally connected to the ground tab and the central signal connection was switching correctly to the outer connections.
Post pictures of the wiring and we might notice something obvious. Try and get the pot and switch connections clearly shown. If they are covered up by wiring and we can’t see any soldering details, then it doesn’t tell us anything.
Thanks Simon. Looks like I have a signal wire from the 3 way switch touching the neck volume pot casing. Let you know how I get on.
Would one touching wire mess up the whole system?
If it’s the common output wire, then yes.
Thanks for all your help Simon. I now have signal to the system. The Bridge pickup seems to be working. No life in the neck pick up.
I've checked all my wiring and it appears to be ok. I'm having difficulty knowing if the tone and volume controls are doing much. Assume
full volume is a clockwise turn. Tone control seems to affect the volume level when I tap the Bridge pickup. I will try to send photos.
Thanks again for your help. (My soldering is not very neat but appears to be operational)
If the pots don’t work well, then note that the wiring diagram shows the ‘ground’ tab on the pots folded back and touching the pot casing but there’s no red blob indicating they should be soldered. Those folded back tabs should all be soldered to the pot casing. Either directly, or using a piece of wire. There should be a wire connected to ground going to the back of each pot. Not all pots have tabs that are long enough to bend back to reach the pot casing, so I generally use some wire to connect them regardless.
Again, thanks Simon. I have done that and still only have the bridge pick up working. When I say working at times I have had a very strong volume tapping the pick up with a small screwdriver. The strength of the tapping through the amp goes much quieter without making any changes to volume or tone controls intermitently. Don't know what to do next? Sorry to be such a pain.
Post some pictures of the wiring if you’re unsure.
I sent some photos but the forum site is telling me the file sizes are too big. Will try again. When I move the wiring I get a low level buzz sometimes. Does that suggest faulty soldering?
Maybe, or you could be touching a signal wire or connection with a finger.
You need to resize your photo. If you're on a PC, then I describe a method I use here:
https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post225749
1500 pixels max for .jpg and .png, and just less than 1 MB in file size (976.6kB).
So any dimension has to be less than 1501 pixels. A portrait-oriented photo of 1500 wide by 1804 tall is still too big as the 1804 side needs to be 1500 or less.
Seems to only take one photo at a time (attached I hope)
Seems to take only one photo at a time. This one is the 3 way switch.
Thanks Simon for all your advice. I decided to start from scratch and everything seems to work now. Unfortunately I broke a connection on the 3 way switch through my clumsy soldering. Will now have to wait for a replacement switch. However, happy to finally see that everything works. Thanks again. No doubt I will have more questions on the next phase.
My first task in the company I worked for after finishing university was in theory a 'temporary' one whilst I was looking for a permanent job; modifying circuit boards for the best part of 6 months, before being taken on full-time and moving into software. Which stood me in good stead for all my future soldering applications.
Hi Simon
Looks like I am still in trouble with my wiring. I have checked and double checked all my points with a multimeter and it seem to check out, no shorts that I can detect. The pickups respond intermittently on and then nothing. Positions on the 3 way switch make no sense.
I suspect my solution is the new 3 way switch as all else seems to work when the pick ups are working. Any comments?
The three-way switch positions should select neck, neck+bridge and bridge pickups.
The three connections on the box switch (excluding the ground contact on the other side of the switch) should be the pickup signals on the two outer connections and the output wire on the centre connection.
Looking from the side of the switch, if the switch is to the left, then it selects the pickup connected to the connection on the right. If the switch is to the right, then it selects the pickup connected to the connection on the left. With the switch in the middle, both pickups are selected.
So if you have a multimeter selected to continuity (beep) mode, then
Switch to the left: Centre to right contact > beep, centre to left contact > no beep
Switch to the middle: Centre to right contact > beep, centre to left contact > beep
Switch to the right: Centre to right contact > no beep, centre to left contact > beep
If you wiggle the switch around and move it back and forth a few times, you should consistently get those results. If you don't, the switch is faulty and needs replacing.
The wiring continuity issues I sometimes get are 1) where there are several wires going into the same connection tab on a potentiometer. It can look like they are all nicely soldered, but one wire may not be and is just help in place by pressure. Move the wires around and the contact makes and breaks. 2) A variation on the above but where the insulation has slipped into the hole in the pot connection tab and isn't soldered to the tab, but the wire is sometimes making touch contact only with the surrounding soldered wires or there may be a blob of solder on the end of the wire (so it looks soldered) but held away from the tab by the insulation poking through.