Tonerider Classic Blues and more...

Just thought I'd share this for anyone interested in Tonerider strat pickups (or any of their pickups tbh)

Last week I did a pickup swap in one of my strats and installed a set of Tonerider Calssic Blues. They sound great!
Very articulate and responsive, and at the risk of being cliché, are "classic" strat sounds. Especially with the 2 & 4 positions, and I really dig the neck tone (my fave in general).

FTR, I bought this set back in 2018/19 (?) for $99 and had them sitting my drawer since. The new production (2021 onward) are wound a bit hotter, but I'm sure sound great too. They are just wound with "a few hundred turns more each pickup" according to Tonerider Support. Both pre and post 2021 Classic Blues are Alnico V, but pre-2021 DCR is: 6.1k/6.2k/6.6k (N/M/B). I don't have the Inductance or Res Peak figures, but have asked TR if they can tell me.

I have played a range of TR's now, and have not been let down by their performance or quality yet.
The TR pickups I have now played are:
Strats - Pure Vintage, Classic Blues. (I think I have played a set of Surfari as well, but not in my guitar)
Tele - Hot Classic, Vintage Plus.
Humbuckers: Alnico II, Alnico IV

Guess it's a slow news day, so I decide to post this in case it helps someone deciding whether to try Toneriders.
Now if I could just get them to do some vintage output mini-humbuckers!

Current DCRs for the Classic Blues are Neck 6.3k / Mid 6.4k / Bridge 7.0k.

Thanks Simon. I meant to post that for comparison but forgot!

There isn't a current Tonerider set that matches the old Classic Blues DCR values.

The current range of Strat pickups in standard SSS format comprises:

Neck 5.9k / Mid 6.1k / Bridge 6.45k - Pure Vintage (all magnets Alnico V)
Neck 6.0k / Mid 6.1k / Bridge 8.9k - City Limits (bridge Alnico V for E2, A and D, Alnico II for G, B and E4. Neck and middle Alnico V)
Neck 6.3k / Mid 6.4k / Bridge 7.0k - Classic Blues (all magnets Alnico V)
Neck 6.1k / Mid 6.2k / Bridge 6.8k - Alnico II Blues (all magnets Alnico II)
Neck 5.9k / Mid 6.1k / Bridge 6.4k - Surfari (all magnets Alnico III).

Hi McCreed and Simon,
What are these numbers actually telling us? Or how do these numbers affect the tone of the pickup?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

Hi McCreed and Simon,
What are these numbers actually telling us? Or how do these numbers affect the tone of the pickup?

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Well... that's the million dollar question! And my answer is not very much!
I will lay it out out in very basic terms as I understand it. I am certain Simon will jump in with a much more eloquent and detailed explanation, but here goes...

DCR (Direct Current Resistance) will really only give an understanding of what the output of a pickup will be. The amount of coil wire windings will effect the overall resistance (more wire = higher resistance). It tells us nothing about the tone. This has stupidly become the primary information that pickup manufacturers seem to publish and I believe many people misinterpret what it means.

The two other specifications I wish ALL manufacturers would provide are: Inductance and Resonant Peak. Whilst these alone still don't paint the entire picture of what pickup will sound like, it certainly provides more insight than just DCR.
In very basic terms, higher Inductance (Henries) will correlate to a brighter sounding pickup and Resonant Peak is the pickup's most efficient frequency (easiest to reproduce*).
There is also a "Resonant Frequency" that's part of the Resonant Peak equation, but I'm not clear where that fits in. (Calling Mr. Barden... calling Mr. Barden...)
Now, I think I have this right... the more winds there are, the lower the resonant frequency, and usually the higher the resonant peak.

Clear as mud, right???

Also edited to add:
Magnet type, wire gauge (even wire coating) and capacitance also effect all the above measurements and how a pickup performs.
Putting all these things together and how they actually interact is where I am out of my depth!

Thanks McCreed,

I am looking at getting some Toneriders for my Scratchy thinlines so this post is well timed - and gets me thinking.

Some basics:

Each gauge of wire has a small resistance per unit length (the thinner the wire, the higher the resistance). Put enough turns of wire on a pickup and you've got enough resistance in the wire to measure in the kilo-ohms range. As the wire gets thinner (as the AWG value goes up), the DC resistance increases.

42AWG is the thickest wire size normally used in pickups and is the wire gauge used in a lot of pickups, such as classic Strat and PAF pickups.

To fit more turns on a standard size bobbin, you eventually have to go to a smaller wire size, so 43AWG is commonly used on modern high-output pickups, though it has also been used on smaller-bobbined vintage pickups like the Tele neck pickup, where lack of space forces the need for thinner wire in order to get enough turns for a decent output signal.

With some of the twin blade single coils or quad blade humbucker pickups, it is necessary to go smaller still, to 44AWG, in order to fit the required number of coil turns on each section of the pickup.

With each reduction in wire size, the DC resistance steps up by around 27%. So say we have a 42AWG pickup with a DCR of 8k ohms. If we had the same number of turns on the pickup but wound with 43AWG, the DCR would read around 10.16k. And using 44AWG with the same number of turns, you'd get a DCR of 12.9k ohms. But as they all have the same number of turns, the pickup output would be pretty much identical.

The thinner the wire is, the easier it is to break when winding it on to the pickup. So, manufacturers tend to use the thickest wire they can to get the required number of coil turns onto their pickups, in order to avoid wastage and extra costs. However, sometimes they will use thinner wire simply in order to get a narrower coil. The wider a coil is, the wider the length of vibrating string it will sense. You’ll then get a measure of phase cancellation at the higher frequencies, so it won’t sound as bright as a narrower coil.

The more turns of wire around the bobbin, the bigger the pickup's output voltage will be. So, we can only use the DCR figures to get an idea of respective pickup outputs if we know that pickup A uses the same wire gauge as pickup B, e.g. a 42AWG pickup with a DCR of 9k ohms will have a higher output to an otherwise identical pickup wound with 43AWG wire having a DCR of 10k ohms, despite its DCR being lower.

Also note that the more turns of wire around the bobbin, the bigger the inductance figure of the pickup (in Henries) will be. So as DCR is indicative of the number of coil turns a pickup has, a pickup with a higher DCR than another (provided the same AWG wire is used) will also have a bit more inductance (park this info for later).

Moving to the pickup magnet, the more powerful it is, the higher the inductance and output of the pickup will be, but also the brighter the pickup will sound if compared to the same pickup with a less powerful magnet (or at least this is the perceived web wisdom).

The alnico magnet strengths increase as the type goes up, with the exception of type III (the weakest), so the alnicos go; III, II, IV, V, VIII. Then you get ceramics magnets and then you get the most powerful types; neodymium magnets.

Different pickups sound different because they don't just pick up the vibrations from the string. The whole pickup, volume control, tone control, guitar lead and amp input impedance arrangement creates a resonant low-pass filter circuit, which the pickup signal then passes through and shapes the tone. An exaggerated example is shown below:

Attachment 42543

The resonant peak boost frequencies around the peak (a bit like a Wah pedal does) but the as the frequencies get higher, they get more and more attenuated.

By varying the level of inductance, impedance and capacitance in the circuit, you can move the resonant peak frequency up or down and vary its height. Inductance is probably the main factor in determining the peak frequency. For a humbucker, with two coils in series, the inductance is a lot more than of a single coil on its own:

Attachment 42544

So (in general) a humbucker's filter emphasizes the mids and cuts off a lot of treble, whilst the single coil's filter emphasises the treble and lets a lot more overall treble though.

1. The pickup itself has resistance, inductance and a small amount of capacitance.

2. The volume control has a resistance path from the signal to ground.

3. The tone control has a capacitance path from the signal to the ground (though the tone pot resistance

4. The guitar lead has capacitance to ground.

5. The amp has an impedance path to ground.

So quite a few variables there to play with!

Adding more windings to a pickup will increase its DCR and increase the pickup’s inductance. The output goes up and the resonant peak is moved down a bit, resulting in a less treble and more mids. So, if you know that you have two otherwise identical alnico V pickups, but one has a DCR of 6.1k ohms and the other 7.1k ohms, then the 6.1k one will be a bit quieter and sound a bit brighter than the 7.1k ohm one.

Significantly increase the winding count, and you can lose a lot of treble and gain a lot more mids, as well as gain a lot more output. So, overwound pickups can start to sound quite dull by comparison to standard versions. If you only play with overdrive or distortion, then this often doesn’t matter because the clipping adds in a lot of high frequency harmonics which brightens up the sound. You can test this on any guitar by rolling the tone control right off and then playing through a distorted amp (or pedal). You’ll only hear a very slight dulling of the resultant sound, as so many high frequency harmonics are added by the clipping.

But if you want to sometimes play very clean and sometimes very distorted, then you may not find this acceptable, so what can be done?

One thing to do is to fit a more powerful magnet in the pickup. This will brighten up the sound, as well as increasing the pickup’s output. Because there is more output, you can always reduce the number of windings, which will again brighten up the sound.

Outside of the pickup itself, a higher volume pot resistance value will move the resonant peak higher, which will brighten up the sound, and a lower resistance value will darken the sound.

Changing the tone pot resistance value will also affect the sound slightly, and removing the tone control completely from the circuit will brighten it considerably.

The type of wire used for the pickup windings will also have an influence on the sound. The four main insulation materials used today are Plain Enamel, Formvar, Polyurethane and Polyurethane Nylon; with Plan Enamel and Formvar being the types that were used on vintage pickups, the Polyurethanes being more modern types.

Each type of insulation is applied with a different thickness and has a different dielectric value. The thickness is important because the wires themselves will then sit nearer or further away to adjacent wires, which affects the pickup’s capacitance. The dielectric properties of the insulation will also affect the capacitance value, so you can make a pickup sound a bit softer or brighter depending on the wire insulation used. The differences are subtle, but you can hear them (at least when playing clean).

The way the windings are wound will also change the pickup capacitance slightly, and so its sound. Scatter-winding spaces the wraps a bit further apart on average, so the capacitance drops compared to an even wind with each wrap sitting parallel to the wrap next to it. It’s a small change, but a change.

Wax potting the windings will also have an effect, as the dielectric value of the wax will be different to that of the air it’s displacing, and so the pickup capacitance changes. Again, a small change.

Bobbin material can also have an effect on the pickup’s capacitance, and so make a small change to how it sounds.

Your guitar lead’s capacitance will also have a big effect on the guitar’s sound. Very short low capacitance cables will make it sound very bright, whilst very long high capacitance cables between the guitar and the amp or the first buffered pedal can suck all the high-end out of the tone.

Change almost any part of the guitar circuitry or pickup design and it will have an effect on the sound. Sometimes large, sometimes almost undetectable. Mainly through that resonant peak being shifted up and down the frequency range, and its height being increased or decreased.

I only know the basics and very few of the finer details of all this, and whilst I could hazard a guess at comparative differences between a normal and overwound version of the same pickup, once you start changing magnet types as well, then I wouldn’t like to make a guess at all. It is what it is!

Great stuff there Simon. Well explained.

Thanks!

Thank you Simon,
A great explanation indeed. I'm glad you only mentioned the basics though:D

There's a whole lot more when it comes to designing pickups in the first place! The shape of the magnetic fields and modifying the magnetic field with the use of base plates. The effect of eddy currents and modifying those with the pickup design and choice of materials etc.