Second build from scratch

I made a guitar out of a big slab of oak a year ago and it was a fun project, so thought id try to have another go at it
I was mostly okay with how it turned out but there are some things i really would have done differently

Link to previous build - https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...ad.php?t=11025

Ive played it for a while now and i think the neck shape is far too flat, the lower 'hook' interferes with hand movement sometimes, the "stealth" knobs are a problem as someone pointed out in my first thread
i feel like the distance from the bridge to the tailpiece is too great and causes unwanted harmonics sometimes(?)

So i want to try to make another guitar but improve the quality of the work and document the process here

Bought some ash, mahogany and walnut
https://i.ibb.co/3CSD3wn/20210507-162944.jpg

I cut the ash to get a similar pattern to a les paul burst, i also drew some rough outlines of the desired style, also les paul inspired :D
https://i.ibb.co/0DnXjkn/20210508-183749.jpg

The mahogany and ash will make a 65mm thick slab that i will reduce to 50mm~ along the edges and 60mm in the center
I havent chosen material for the neck yet, perhaps maple should be suitable

Interesting project. Eager to see how this turns out. Good luck with the build.

rob

Testing some oil to see how the grain is going to pop, what kind of treatment do you guys suggest for the ash? im looking for something similar to a les paul sunburst
https://i.ibb.co/XjkPr8W/20210508-183947.jpg

And remembering how much of a hassle the frets gave me last time i made a jig with a friends mini-mill with X&Y table along with a digital readout, it came out spot on the desired measurements for a 22 fret 628mm scale lenght
https://i.ibb.co/xXMKDw8/20210516-064746.jpg



What kind of distance from the bridge to the first pickup do you recommend? (using emg zack wylde active pickups, by the way can i phase invert them just like red special is? as i will install a switch for the battery terminal i might aswell add some more options
Also what is a good distance between pickups? 628mm scale
I am contemplating making a F hole in the upper part of the body, partly for looks and weight reduce but i'd really like some kind of aucustic properties, what kind of pros and cons might i end up with in that case?

Gluing the slabs
https://i.ibb.co/0mVJKPw/20210601-142927.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/mH5n7vX/20210610-110215.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/93Wpdwp/20210612-014835.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Sxydmsj/20210623-125530.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/7k3dMmt/20210626-200347.jpg

Roughly finished and tested the grain with some light oil
https://i.ibb.co/MN1fB4j/20210721-205136.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Tb7RPHf/20210803-114104.jpg
Attempting a scarf joint for the headstock using epoxy resin as glue

https://i.ibb.co/R76pNYx/20210803-183144.jpg
Joint looks sharp

https://i.ibb.co/J3Wd9sn/20210803-125533.jpg
Giving the fretboard a 305mm radius (12 inch)

The jig made my life so much easier (628mm scale lenght 22 frets and i intend to install a zero-fret
https://i.ibb.co/6BwfLM2/20210803-134018.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/g3rMfJH/20210803-134153.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/q5vphW0/20210803-151246.jpg

The main pieces, i increased the cavity size to fit a battery since i only own a pair of active pickups
https://i.ibb.co/KWV7HGW/20210803-211714.jpg


All the parts together
https://i.ibb.co/56FVdxG/20210803-211644.jpg

So i have a couple of questions - since im going for a zero fret design do i have to install the zero fret on a slightly higher level?
Also im thinking of moving the vertical support of the strings away from the zero fret to give a bit of an illusion that the strings arent supported side to side

I intend to glue everything using epoxy resin instead of wood glue, i hope to get a stiffer neck and a very solid bond between the body and neck, perhaps to win some bluesy sustain characteristics?

The body is made of ash and mahogany, is it benificial to seal the long grains of the ash by massaging in some epoxy?
Im looking to have a sunburst-ish finish with a darker area around the edge, how do i approach this?

The neck is of maple and not very strong grain, i was thinking about coating the maple with epoxy and wetsand it to get a real smooth surface

What glue is appropriate to use on the frets as i want something that gets hard but obviously not as permanent as epoxy

Any other pointers about my project? ill take all the information i can get

I'm afraid I can't help with any of your questions, but it's looking great!

Yep, same. I'm applauding over here. The carved top and that scarf joint are looking so so good.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

Zero frets are just the same as any other fret. It's the neck curvature and bridge height that gives the string its clearance over the first fret. However they do get a lot of wear as they always have string pressure on them, even when fretting other strings. So you might want to think about using a stainless steel fret for the zero fret. Stainless steel frets are a real pain to work on because they are so hard, so they aren't something luthiers like installing. But a stainless zero fret makes sense to me.

But zero frets still need a good string break angle over them, and the string needs to go from the fret to the tuners without touching the end of the fretboard or the bottom of the nut slots. At the moment, your fretboard looks far too long. Think about the amount of fretboard that's on the headstock end of a Fender neck past the nut, and that's the most you can have in order to get string clearance, especially with that headstock break angle.

You don't want the zero fret to be too far from the nut. The further away from the nut, the more the strings will move sideways when you bend strings and the quicker you'll wear pits in the zero fret. Remember that the zero fret always has string contact, so evert time you play a string, it will get a small amount of wear. On the other frets, you are spreading this wear out, so they last a lot longer.

You'll need nut files to cut the nut, as the slots will need to be deeper than normal as you don't want the strings touching the bottom of the nut. You'll want the slots to be the same width as, or just slightly wider than the strings. As deeper slots make the two end 'teeth' of the nut more vulnerable to breaking off if caught (they have the thinnest width so are the weakest, as well as being most exposed to being accidentally caught), you could consider a metal nut, maybe brass, just for strength. Otherwise. make sure that the top of the nut is filed down so that the top of the nut is at most the same height as the top of the strings.

The thought of replacing a zero fret puts me off owning a guitar with one. It's very easy to replace a nut!

As any wood glue used on a well-mated joint is stronger than the wood around it, there really is no need to use epoxy for the neck joint as it wont confer any extra strength, it will just make it impossible to remove the neck in future if necessary. At most, I'd use hide glue rather than Titebond, (as Gibson used to do) as it's suppose to be a harder glue than Titebond or PVA. A lump of hide glue on its own will form a hard lump, whilst a lump of Titebond will still be quite soft when dry. But with a very thin layer of Titebond sandwiched between two bits of wood, the glue bonds with the cellulose in the wood and a thin layer becomes very hard. Some people think that hide glue does transmit a bit more vibration than Titebond, but if it is, it will be minimal. A smear of glue, be it Titebond, PVA or epoxy, in the neck pocket, certainly won't transform the character of the guitar. Regular Titebond and hide glue can be loosened by heat and/or moisture. You can't loosen epoxy.

So if you do use epoxy, you'll need to be 100% sure that you've got the neck angle right for the bridge you are using and that there are no issues with the neck such as the truss rod not working correctly, that mean you need to remove the neck to work on it.

There are plenty of build diaries on this site detailing various finishes, including sunbursts which can be wiped (hard to get a good transition) or sprayed) I'd personally steer away from epoxy myself just because its too close to a couple of polyester-finished guitars I had where the thickness and hardness of the finish just killed any body resonance and the guitars felt lifeless. With the deep grain in ash, filling that with epoxy and using it on top as the finish as well will give a very thick coating which I don't think will do the guitar any favours.

A well seated fret shouldn't need any glue to keep it in place. At most you'd smear some PVA or Titebond along the length of the tang before inserting it, or else put a drop of CA on the exposed end of the tangs after fitting.

I do hope that the saw you used is a proper fretting saw that is sized for the fretwire you are using? Otherwise you really need to throw that fretboard away and make another one using the right saw. You can then use the old fretboard to make more slots in and practice your fretting. Frets should be held in place by the barbs on the tangs, not glue. And if the slots are too wide, then you lose the precision needed for good intonation.

I don't think there will be issues as you've also got the mahogany and it's a thick body, but with the grain of the ash running across the body, then it's far weaker against the shear forces put on it by string tension. It might look prettier this way around, but there is a reason that the body grain normally runs in the same direction as the neck on guitar bodies. It might look like the grain runs from top to bottom on a flame-maple topped guitar, but the flame pattern runs across the grain, and the real grain runs in the same direction as the neck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Regular Titebond and hide glue can be loosened by heat and/or moisture. You can't loosen epoxy.

---

A lot depends on the epoxy. A number of epoxy adhesives loosen with heat. I made the mistake once of using an epoxy glue to make a soldering iron stand. As the iron heated up, the transferred heat went to the stand, the epoxy liquefied and it fell apart. I've also used high temp epoxies for heat sinks. Where expxies seem to shine over normal wood glues is oily timber species.or gluing end grain to end grain. Great for ship building but not realy worth the handling issues compared to good old Titebond.

But probably still melting well over 100°C I assume, so the standard steam or hot palate knife probably aren’t going to be much use?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

But probably still melting well over 100°C I assume, so the standard steam or hot palate knife probably aren’t going to be much use?

---

I'm pretty sure one of those gas burners they use for killing weeds would do the job. Doesn't everyone want a shou sugi ban finish? ;)

Thank you for the thorough walkthrough

I will be using stainless frets as thats the only kind i have
I realise the nut setup will be different when deciding to use a zero fret- also i left the fretboard too long in order to have some wiggleroom before i decide how to approach the setup

You are right about the epoxy, i agree that it is overkill and a hassle to work with

Yes the saw i use matches the width of the fret-tang, its not made for fret-cutting though - perhaps i should look into buying one that is intended for the task

I'm far from an expert on fretting, I've only done a couple of necks, but I do know that the saw should just be very slightly larger than the width of the tang. The tang on most Jescar fret wire is generally 0.02" wide, and they say to use a 0.023" wide slot. The barbs on the tang on this width tang are a maximum of 0.036" wide, so it's those that hold the fretwire in place. Too narrow a slot makes it hard to knock the fret in fully. Looking at the other widths of tang and recommended slot widths, the slot always needs to be 0.002" to 0.003" wider than the tang width.

So probably best to get a fret saw with a known width and no widening of the teeth, as is often the case with general purpose saws, as the blade may be the correct width but the teeth may cut a significantly wider slot.

The better the fit in the slot, the better the fret will go in and hold.

I'd suggest doing some scale drawing of the headstock and the end of fretboard and work out the string geometry you'll need with that zero fret and your headstock angle, rather than trying to experiment in situ.

https://i.ibb.co/61yVk9Q/20210814-232050.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/PCjxH3x/20210814-232139.jpg
I will remove a lot of mahogany in order to shape the body to flow into the neck profile, i dislike the neck shelf that interrupts the aesthetics
https://i.ibb.co/fnqrrJk/20210814-232152.jpg

I've been spending some time shaping the neck profile, i think a C-profile suits me best, a thick C-profile that is
the neck currently measures 30mm (1.18") at the nut and 37mm (1.45") at the 12th fret - it sure feels comfortable in my hand but do you reckon after fretting that it will become a bit too thick?

This is how my hand sits at the moment
https://i.ibb.co/3zkMpmh/20210814-232248.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QJXKQYv/20210814-232310.jpg

I have been feeding the wood plenty of teak oil, i plan to stain the body to get something of a starburst look, the neck will only get teak oil and a lot of it

The neck will feel thicker once fretted and with strings on. The strings will be above the frets adding to the height/thickness, so I’d try putting maybe 2-3mm of card on top of the neck and see how that feels. I’ve got a couple of kit guitars where I felt the necks were fine until I put the guitar together and then wished I’d taken a bit more off them.

Your neck is a lot thicker than say a 1958 ‘baseball bat’ LP neck, which on the reissues is 0.951” (24.1mm) thick at the 1st fret, and the ‘59 necks are 0.932” (23.7mm) at the first fret.

At the moment you are just holding it and not playing it for a couple of hours at a time. Just try ‘playing’ a basic 12-bar shuffle using barre chords on it for a few minutes and see how you get on (That always makes my hand ache). I think you need to do some research on guitar necks you’ve found comfortable to play. I think you’ll find them a lot thinner than you think they are.

But the neck shape is something you can make thinner once it’s all together, as long as you are prepared to refinish it, so if you think it will work for you and your hand size, then why not at least give it a go? Or maybe even hold off on the neck finish, just do the body. Then assemble it, play it and adjust the neck until you are happy, then put the neck finish on? As you are just oiling the neck, you can easily do that later.

Heya, been busy but finally got plenty of time to work on the guitar
Here comes a couple of updates

Some heel relief after gluing the neck
https://i.ibb.co/vkKCk0v/20210914-145743.jpg
I think the area where all 4 woods meet look wierd. also i went a bit too deep when sanding the heel, id like to hide it and make the area less contrasting

https://i.ibb.co/q5dcTT2/20210914-145811.jpg

Deciding to fill the ash pores with high quality acrylic paint, mixed a medium dark brown and pushed the acrylic with a credit card into the pores
https://i.ibb.co/cgF2jHN/20210925-150254.jpg

Scraping the excess once dry
https://i.ibb.co/0FQshhs/20210925-154926.jpg

Unable to find frames for my pickups so i decided to make em from a suitable slab of walnut
https://i.ibb.co/cywXKmG/20210927-170120.jpg


Carving flat spots to seat the pickup frames (NOTE the imperfection on the top, most of the joint will be covered by pickup plates but the biggest gap will remain visible, any tips to blend it out?
https://i.ibb.co/HByhZGz/20210930-185649.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/FKYp9Np/20210930-185703.jpg

Dry-fitting, the pickup frames are way too thick currently and need to lose 5mm thickness
https://i.ibb.co/84bcMDN/20211007-183659.jpg


I experimented with putting regular teak oil on the right side and teak VARNISH closer to the camera, when freshly applied the regular teak oil looked much much better but after giving the varnish some time it outshines the regular oil.
https://i.ibb.co/5K2qrsL/20211008-205145.jpg

I like it but id really love getting a fade from very light around the tailpiece and darker along the edges until it meets the mahogany back, and make it so you cant really see the gluejoint that well, i have a jar of mahogny colored stain and also a graphite-black one - how do you recommend i approach it? - or would you do it different? I really am making it up as i go so im interested in your opinion

That looks fabulous! Years ago we made a body from ash and just oiled it, has very similar grain to your body and I love that look.
Didn’t make the neck on ours!
It’s the imprecision bass in my signature below, I think you will see what I mean!
What a great job. It is really interesting reading your updates

Hi Manisk,
the guitar is looking great.

"I like it but id really love getting a fade from very light around the tailpiece and darker along the edges until it meets the mahogany back, and make it so you cant really see the gluejoint that well, i have a jar of mahogny colored stain and also a graphite-black one - how do you recommend i approach it? - or would you do it different? I really am making it up as i go so im interested in your opinion"

I did a stained black to jarrah burst on my FBM-1 and the TB-4 builds using FW stains. Both reasonably successful. I did the jarrah all over first, let it dry, then added the black and using a clean rag tried to blend it in. I had to do the black a couple of times and the blending took quite a while.

Looking on Youtube most videos blend the stained burst while both colours are still wet. I found this quite challenging on scrap wood.

I did a few experiments first. On scrap wood I also tried doing the black first, trying to feather the colour. Then sanded back to get a good transition. then added the jarrah.

I don't think there is any perfect way to do it. I settled on the first method as I thought it was easiest. Worst comes to worst it can always be sanded back if you are not happy with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andyxlh

That looks fabulous! Years ago we made a body from ash and just oiled it, has very similar grain to your body and I love that look.
Didn’t make the neck on ours!
It’s the imprecision bass in my signature below, I think you will see what I mean!
What a great job. It is really interesting reading your updates

---

Thanks!
hey sweet bass

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

Hi Manisk,
the guitar is looking great.

"I like it but id really love getting a fade from very light around the tailpiece and darker along the edges until it meets the mahogany back, and make it so you cant really see the gluejoint that well, i have a jar of mahogny colored stain and also a graphite-black one - how do you recommend i approach it? - or would you do it different? I really am making it up as i go so im interested in your opinion"

I did a stained black to jarrah burst on my FBM-1 and the TB-4 builds using FW stains. Both reasonably successful. I did the jarrah all over first, let it dry, then added the black and using a clean rag tried to blend it in. I had to do the black a couple of times and the blending took quite a while.

Looking on Youtube most videos blend the stained burst while both colours are still wet. I found this quite challenging on scrap wood.

I did a few experiments first. On scrap wood I also tried doing the black first, trying to feather the colour. Then sanded back to get a good transition. then added the jarrah.

I don't think there is any perfect way to do it. I settled on the first method as I thought it was easiest. Worst comes to worst it can always be sanded back if you are not happy with it.

---

Thanks yea i reckon a fade wouldnt give me too much hassle since i have whats needed, only missing knowledge X)

You'd normally put the curve of the bottom of the pickup rings, rather than trying to create a flat area for them to sit on. use some double sided tape to stick some sandpaper to the top of the guitar next to the pickup rout location, and move the ring back and forth on that so the bottom takes on the exact curve of the top. It takes a while but it does a good job in the end.

Most pickup routs for humbuckers have deeper recesses at the end to accommodate the pickup legs and adjustment screws. Some humbuckers have very shallow legs and they aren't needed, but most are reasonably deep (some are very deep), so I'd check to see if you need to rout out a bit of the cavity base for them. Even if your current pickups fit, if you change them in the future, you may need the extra depth at the ends, so it might be best to do it now.

The typical Gibson humbucker rout is 5/8" deep (15.9mm), with 1" deep end pockets (25.4mm), which should accommodate the deepest pickup legs you are ever likely to get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simon Barden

You'd normally put the curve of the bottom of the pickup rings, rather than trying to create a flat area for them to sit on. use some double sided tape to stick some sandpaper to the top of the guitar next to the pickup rout location, and move the ring back and forth on that so the bottom takes on the exact curve of the top. It takes a while but it does a good job in the end.

Most pickup routs for humbuckers have deeper recesses at the end to accommodate the pickup legs and adjustment screws. Some humbuckers have very shallow legs and they aren't needed, but most are reasonably deep (some are very deep), so I'd check to see if you need to rout out a bit of the cavity base for them. Even if your current pickups fit, if you change them in the future, you may need the extra depth at the ends, so it might be best to do it now.

The typical Gibson humbucker rout is 5/8" deep (15.9mm), with 1" deep end pockets (25.4mm), which should accommodate the deepest pickup legs you are ever likely to get.

---

Cheers simon, thanks for the input, i did originally plan to form the pickup rings to fit the contour of the guitar but due to the heavy angle on the carved top i decided that flattening the mounting area was far less work in this case

Good deal on the pickup cavity, i will investigate the clearance in the pockets

https://i.ibb.co/Wkxzcwp/20211008-213724.jpg
Ill add some pictures of pickuprings in progress ;)

I have been playing with the idea of adding phase switches to my electronics, i have active pickups if that makes a difference

This is my kit
https://i.ibb.co/0CVKfgY/emg.png

Do you reckon its worth giving a try?

https://www.emgpickups.com/pi2.html

The EMG phase switch is active and expensive. For something you’ll rarely use, I personally wouldn’t bother. Because of the active nature of the pickups, I don’t believe you can install a simple passive switch or you’ll short out the battery or something similar.

With a bit more thought, I don't think you'd actually short out the battery, but you'd end up connecting the hot of one pickup to the battery ground of another, so you'd very likely get silence with both pickups on and the polarity swapped. Which is why it has to be done with an electronic circuit that isolates the signals, allowing them to be reversed.

Thanks mate, so really not worth the effort

Unless you are in a Peter Green/Fleetwood Mac covers band, it probably isn't. It's nice to have the option if it's already there, but the number of times you can really use it is very limited. Because it's so thin sounding, it gets lost in a mix very easily, so you need a pretty sparse backing to let it be heard. It really needs to be played clean, as you get a very weak drive sound from it.

Testfitting all the hardware before i go ahead and make the finishing touches!

The wiring
https://i.ibb.co/86CVNgb/20211022-224412.jpg
https://ibb.co/YXZqwdc
https://ibb.co/PwY32MZ

Body, neck and headstock
I ended up with a neck thickness of 25mm the entire lenght, i carved out a lot of curves in the body aswell as a stomach cutout and a strong relief where the neck meets the body, concerning frets i think i prefer as wide as possible so i barely filed the fret ends, i only rounded them off the slightest
https://i.ibb.co/SwKxhy5/20211022-225022.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HP1R0H1/20211022-230806.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/cNrMnSX/20211023-000926.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/98pPcyw/20211023-001141.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/z2d3BwR/20211023-000904.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Y37dFQ9/20211023-002405.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/4MhtsFZ/20211023-001615.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/H454Y6K/20211023-002346.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/dGCTNBz/20211023-002718.jpg

NOTE this is UNFINISHED hence the blemishes

Difficult to intonate :p any tips? i was thinking of just bending a flat piece of metal in two different angles to be able to turn the screw

https://i.ibb.co/WDssTZP/20211023-001923.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/t3vwhg3/20211023-001912.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/CH8qQNR/20211023-002126.jpg

Im quite happy with the zero-fret, how much easier it is to tune compared to my previous build!
I was also quite lucky getting quite a low string action without any string buzz really, might lower the action even more or should i wait for the neck to settle after tuning, in that case how long?



I also have this 5-way switch that i am curious to know if i can implement into the current schematics as an on/off for the battery and perhaps utilize the remaining 4 circuits in some way




https://i.ibb.co/Qpj0J7G/20211022-225403.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/XkXh09r/20211022-230810.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/SV8mdyz/20211022-225118.jpg



Please go ahead and inform me with anything you think i could benefit from! thanks

Hi Manisk,
as far as the bridge is concerned, can it be turned around so that the screws face to the bottom of the body? I'm not familiar with that bridge, but some of my Tune-o-matics have the screws facing the neck, others away from the neck.

Cheers mate, yeah that was my first thought aswell but the wheels are different sizes to match the the corresponding string ;(

https://i.ibb.co/4gM2TRZ/20211023-015432.jpg
This works okay, just gotta slim the profile of the tool to reach the high e
I really like the bridge design tho with the independant adjustment of each string- perhaps not really vital but it makes it soo much more forgiving when setting the neck, i dont know how to set them straight yet :D:cool:

Can the wheels all be removed and swapped over?

Oh mate i didnt think of that at all, would make sense, ill have a look right now

https://i.ibb.co/WG7Qwg8/20211023-025748.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/thNMXGT/20211023-050836.jpg

So the rollers just pop out of their holders?
Also can each roller on the bridge be adjusted sideways on the thread!? That is nifty.