ES-335 12String Stop Bar advice

Hi Everyone, this is a virgin post for me on this Forum so please be gentle :)

I have been kindly gifted an ES-335 12 String kit (not a Pit Bull kit) apparently from a supplier that is no longer trading.

Anyway to my question.
Being a 12 string there is logically more force placed on the Stop Tail bar than on a 6 string. Looking at the holes drilled for the posts, right side has the hole for the ground wire out of the centre block but the left side has clearly broken out from the block.
Should I add an extension to the side of the block and re drill or am I over thinking things ?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Stomp70

Hi.

I'm struggling to get a mental picture of how this is all arranged and exactly which post hole has this issue. Could you take a picture of the top showing all the bridge and stop bar post holes, and mark up the offending hole?

You are certainly correct about the force on the stop bar and it's important that the inserts are securely held by the wood. The ply top alone won't be enough. But I don't have any idea how you'd get another piece of wood inside the body against the badly positioned centre block, let alone manage to clamp and glue it in place securely.

If it's a bridge post hole, almost all the force on that is downwards, so it won't pull out, though you'd probably have to epoxy the insert in place.

I'd be more tempted to look at alternative solutions like a trapeze tail piece, and block those post holes as best you can.

Another more drastic option would be to make it a 6-string by cutting down the headstock, fitting a new nut and bridge and adding a top mounted Bigsby-style trem unit which doesn't rely on the post holes but is mainly attached to the rear of the guitar.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

. But I don't have any idea how you'd get another piece of wood inside the body against the badly positioned centre block

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It's certainly not going to be easy. It depends how big the breakout is, and curiously larger might be slightly easier. Do you have any mates who are into epoxy boat building? They'll have stuff that might be useful.

Here is how I would approach it.
I would look to pass a piece of fishing line or similar from the post hole to the f hole. I'd then find the largest piece of wood that will fit through the f hole and use the line to drag it against the centre block. Have another piece of line to drag it back again. You might even be able to get two pieces. Practice this until you can juggle your piece(s) of wood alongside the centreblock fairly readily. Now you need the boat building mate. What you want is what we call bog, a sort of whipped cream thickness mix of epoxy and microfibres. With **every** surface part of the guitar masked off - 'cos gunge is going to get everywhere and spoil your finish at the slightest opportunity - coat your bits of wood in bog and pass them through the f hole. Stuff as much bog as possible through the post hole against the centre block. Now pull your bits of wood in place. Hopefully you can get them seated with bog all round. The great thing about doing it this way is you don't need clamping to secure, it will cure in place. When cured remove as much fishing line as you can, and if there are any gaps you can access round the post hole fill with more bog. When it's all cured redrill the post hole. But be mega careful about the masking, get the epoxy where you want finish and it will be trouble.

It's a lot of hassle, and a bit of a toss-up whether you'll get decent result, but it shouldn't make anything worse, so if it doesn't come off then you can carry on as Simon suggests.

Jim's suggestion would certainly work, but you may well be limited by the F-hole as to the size of the block you'll be able to push/pull through. As Jim suggests, you may have to split the block into two, in order to get it through the F-hole, but you can use the same pieces of string passing through both blocks to pull it tight. If you end up with the very end bit of the string epoxied to the block, so be it, you won't see it, but cut off the string very close to the knots you make so you don't have any long lose ends visible.

Definitely do a couple of dry runs first, and also try and put tape down on the inside by the F-holes, as you'll see any epoxy that drops onto the inside of the body through the holes (though you can always get a paint brush and paint the visible parts of the insides black - I did it on one of my builds). Fold the ends of any tape over so that there's a bit you can easily grab with thin-nosed pliers to aid removal.

I'd recommend an 11.5mm drill for the post hole as the standard post size is 12mm diameter with the splines and the non-splined section of the post inserts is 11.5mm diameter, so they fit but you aren't going to split any wood knocking them in.

Thanks for the speedy advice Gents.
I'm both glad I am thinking in the right direction but a little gutted that my first kit has these issues !

I was thinking of building out the side of the block to add more strength but I take it from your comments any thought of just gluing (Titebond 2) will be insufficient and epoxy would be a better choice.

My thinking following your suggestions is, If I can get as large a reinforcement as possible in through the F hole and attach to the centre block snug up to the veneer, that will help distribute the load from the post hole. Just need to work out how to apply enough pressure for setting time without creating a problem in another area.

Guess I will have a red hot go, without this fixed the body is all but a throw away.

Again my thanks and if I get it sorted I will let you guys know.

The thing about using an epoxy/microfibres bog, rather than titebond or the like is that it doesn't need clamping or even an accurate fit, and the gunge will spread out and fill gaps and things. Unless the hole is really way off the centreblock the main thing you want the patch to do is to stop the post falling out of the side, there shouldn't be an amazing load on the fixup.

0h yes, a top tip for working with epoxy is brown parcel tape, epoxy doesn't stick to it so its great for protecting stuff, although I'd be wary about sticking it to the external wood because of tape residue.

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Originally Posted by Stomp70

Guess I will have a red hot go, without this fixed the body is all but a throw away.

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Don't throw it away! There is generally something you can do.

I have never done anything like what Jim suggests, and really couldn't. My wife is an environmental engineer and has forbidden my bringing anything like those materials into the house.

Nevertheless I have had this same experience on two ES-335 bodies. The good news is that I managed the repairs with nothing more toxic than Titebond. The bad news is that it meant that I had to use a solid color on the top. I can give some detail of the repair, as well as a "solution" that might not require a repair, but first there are a couple of things that you should check.

The root of the problem is the ridiculously narrow center block, but that may not be the only problem. It may signify an alignment problem. Another way of saying this is that before fixing the hole you should make sure it is in the right place. That means doing a dry-fit to see how the strings line up with the bridge and pickup routs.

On my first one, everything off by about 1 degree including the neck route. On my second one the pickup routes did not quite align with the bridge. On the first one, I had a problem exactly like yours. On the second, I had it when I shifted the bridge to where it needed to be.

So if JimC's plan is "A" let's call this plan B:
The simplest solution might be to plug the holes and use a floating bridge. If you have the same problem with the tail stop--or if you are worried that 12 string force might pull it out, you can also use a trapeze tailpiece. If any part of your stop-tailpiece hole has air under it, a trapeze tailpiece might be advisable. Even if it doesn't, the center block is so narrow that one side will be very weak, so a tapeze might be the best option in any case. 12 strings can pull pretty hard.

Sanding down the tops of plugs without damaging the veneer is difficult, but people with more skill than I've got have done it.

Plan C:
If everything does line up and you want to use the original holes for the bridge with the original hardware, then you could try this. I have managed to glue a piece of wood to the side of the center block with Titebond, and the blocks have held fast. I did not use clamps but it requires strong fingers. I took a small piece of pine or poplar, and put a generous coat of Titebond on the the top and side. I worked it carefully through the F-hole and pressed it as hard as I could into place. I then held it there for 20 minutes. Both the odd position and the pressure made my fingers really hurt, but Titebond can be unclamped after 10 min, so 20 should be enough. I left it to completely dry for two days. After that I could drill into it for the bridge ferrule.

While I could get a good bond on the center block, the new piece was not quite flush with the top, due to the top's curve. Since about 2/3 of the hole was over the center block that was enough to keep the ferrule from going too deep. I really just needed the new piece to keep it laterally stable. This could work for you if most of the hole is over the center block. However, It'd still use a trapeze (and that is actually what I did with mine) rather than a stop-tail piece.

If you have too much hole, not enough center block, as was the case with my 2nd ES335 body, you could try the more invasive plan "D" that I will detail below. Plan "D" is the best I have come up with, but also the most invasive, so if you use it, plan on a solid color for the top...

Plan D is shockingly invasive, but it worked well for me when I needed to align one of my posts entirely off the center block. I used Titebond for everything glued.

First I glued a piece onto the side of the center block as in plan C, and let it dry for a full 48 hours. Then i drilled a BIG hole with a Forstner bit. I centered the hole so the middle would be on the center block, but not by much as you can see in the photo on the right below. In the photo on the left you can see the bar that I glued onto the side of the center block. The gap between the top and the glued piece (due to the top's curvature) is really clear in this pic.

Attachment 38529

All the glued piece does is give the plug a little more lateral stability.

Attachment 38530

The pic on the left shows the wooden plug that goes in the hole. This plug is recycled from a remodeled closet. In the middle pic, you can see how the glued piece at the top supports the plug, and how excessive I was with the Titebond. Pic on the right is after I used a Japanese saw to cut off the top of the plug as flush with the body as possible. I got a little beyond flush in a couple of places, but once filled you can't tell under a solid finish.

Attachment 38531

Pic on the right is how it looked after filling, sanding and dry-fitting the hardware. Pic on the left is how it looked with the finish on but the hardware off.

I think this approach works pretty well. It won't preserve the the veneer like JimC's approach...but it worked for me.

It worked well enough, in fact, that now I always wonder what my be lurking under a solid color finish ;-)

Thanks Fender,
Sounds like your correct that my issue is like your first 335.
The left hole is mostly in the centre block, if it were a clock the gap would be between 8 & 10, so still has good coverage for where the force is mostly going to apply.
Good tip about a dry fit, I had not thought of that. I will check and hope that there is more wackiness to deal with.

If good I think I will give the titebond block a go. I would hate to loose the flametop because of hip replacement surgery.
A few more tings to plan line up and move forward.

Again Cheers to all.

I'm not familiar with these hollow body guitars, so just brain storming.

But could a big hole be drilled through the back to allow enough access to place a block next to the centre block? This way the veneer front may be saved. If the added block was tappered there may not be a gap.

Or a hole in the side (plug socket size) to allow access to glue and screw the added block onto the centre block?

Just thoughts!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trevor Davies

I'm not familiar with these hollow body guitars, so just brain storming.

But could a big hole be drilled through the back to allow enough access to place a block next to the centre block? This way the veneer front may be saved. If the added block was tappered there may not be a gap.

Or a hole in the side (plug socket size) to allow access to glue and screw the added block onto the centre block?

Just thoughts!

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I thought about that, but I actually liked the sort of natural grain pretty well. In my case, only the top is finished solid. The back and sides are finished natural. But that's just me. It could work if you wanted to have the back be a solid color. But I think it would be a lot harder. You would need to drill all the way to the top without going through, and then you'd have to figure out how to to get the plug to match the curve of the top. Going in from the top you only have to get the plug a little deeper than the post.

Again, in my case, the veneer was doomed anyway. These are really cool kits, but my two main beefs with them are that the veneer is too thin, and the center block is too narrow. 12mm more on the center block would make it much stronger laterally, and allow more bridge choices. And I would MUCH prefer to have the back veneer on both the front and back (like the old Gibsons actually had) rather than the flame maple tops that get damaged if you breath on them too hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stomp70

Thanks Fender,
Sounds like your correct that my issue is like your first 335.
The left hole is mostly in the centre block, if it were a clock the gap would be between 8 & 10, so still has good coverage for where the force is mostly going to apply.
Good tip about a dry fit, I had not thought of that. I will check and hope that there is more wackiness to deal with.

If good I think I will give the titebond block a go. I would hate to loose the flametop because of hip replacement surgery.
A few more tings to plan line up and move forward.

Again Cheers to all.

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I think "plan C" could work for the bridge. I would still consider a trapeze (like a Rickenbacker 12) or string-through rather than a stop tailpiece. I have seen one or two Gibson ES-335 12 strings...but only with trapeze tailpieces. I saw a calculation that suggested that in standard tuning a Guitar has string tension of about 129 lbs, where as 12 string would be closer to 245 lbs. That's higher than even a typical bass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimC

the main thing you want the patch to do is to stop the post falling out of the side, there shouldn't be an amazing load on the fixup.

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I really can't believe you said that, given all the fuss you made about securing the bridge on the ESB-4!

If this really is a stop bar hole, then there is a hell of a lot of force on the stop bar pulling forwards.

As fender3x said, it's more than a on bass. Using D'addario figures, for a set of their NYXL 45-100s bass strings, you have 72kg of tension. For a 6-string with 10-46s you've got much less at 46.5kg. But for a 12-string set of 10-46s, you've got 104.7kg of tension (that's 152, 102 and 231lbs respectively).

9s or even 8s would be less (D'Addario don't do electric 12s in less than 10s and other manufacturers tensions are much harder to find or are unavailable) but still require a lot of tension.

For minimum disruption I'd go with Jim's method, but if you feel inclined to try fender3x's method D, I'd do it from the back as Trevor Davies said, not the top. You won't normally see the back of the guitar in use, but you will see the front (and so will others), so if you want to make the most of the veneer flame, then the back would be the way to do it. I'd be tempted to drill though from the top in a couple of places, through the post hole and along the line of the block so you know where the edge is.

I'd then cut out a rectangular hole, fit a similar-sized block of a strong hardwood (like maple) into the hole so that it fills it the gap completely (but sticks out the top of the hole) and then it can be clamped in place from the top and bottom of the guitar. Because it will be very hard to apply sideways clamping force, I really would go for Jim's epoxy over Titebond.

Once set, you can then plane/file/sand the protruding part of the block down so that it follows the contours of the back, then I'd prime and paint the back and sides a solid colour.

The centre block wood used in the kits is very light and doesn't really have much strength, normally something like paulownia (and I have no idea why they use it except it will be cheap and out of sight), so whilst most of the force from the posts will be fore and aft, it really needs the support from the sides to stop the wood from being crushed under pressure, grip being lost and the post being pulled out.

An even cruder method would be to find some longer 12mm dia. post inserts, then drill some 8mm holes through to the back, positioned in the centre of the post holes, and use a couple of 8mm round-headed bolts and washers with single slot or cross-head slots (not a hex-head bolt) , of the right length to screw into maybe 5mm of the lower part of the bushing, so that the inserts are securely held in place from the back. They shouldn't go anywhere then.

It may be partly my lack of skill that is making me suggest this, but if it were me, I would probably try A or B first, and only go to one of the other approaches if that failed.

I am sure that the epoxy bond is stronger, than the "method B" approach that I used. but my first ES 335 bass has about three years on it and my 2nd has about 1. Both are still going strong, so I have some reason to believe the Finger pressure for 20 min is sufficient. It's also relatively easy.

I would save "method D" as a last resort. UNLESS you have given up on a clear finish for the top. The nice thing about "method D" is that it can be done no matter what other approach has failed before it. If you look at the pics I put up above, you'll see that there are quite a number of holes that needed to be patched. These are from approaches I tried that did not work.

Personally, I would not go in from the bottom doing "Model D," unless you are using some gap-filling method like JimC suggests. I considered using polyurethane adhesive that expands to fill gaps, but rejected it since it flexes. This is good many kinds of construction, but not so good in something that is designed to be rigid, like a guitar bridge. My experience with the kind of construction JimC and Simon are talking about is something I haven't done since I was in my 20s. I trust that he and Simon with their knowledge of boat building know what they are talking about and will have better advice than I.

I think Simon's approach could work, but I also think it would be harder. You'd have to shape the surface on the top of the piece so that it is flush against the curved surface. You'd probably want to make it rectangular as Simon suggests to fit flush against the center block. That would mean cutting a rectangular hole in the bottom after locating the exact side of the center block. Then you'd need some sort of gap filling adhesive since you would not be able to clamp from the side. It also won't work if you try model B first, so you'd need to decide in advance to do it. The bottom-up approach would still work with a round peg approach, even if you tried model B first, but you have the problem of getting the top of the peg shaped to be flush with the top--unless you top it with JimC's slurry.

By contrast going in from the top with a round peg eliminates the shape problem and the clamping problem. The most important thing is to get a round piece of wood that fits snuggly in the hole the Forstner bit creates. You want it to fit like a dowel. I used something like a drill press, so that the hole went in straight without wobbling. The Forstner bit makes a flat bottom, so one end of the peg needs to be flat. Coat the peg and hole surfaces with Titebond and tap the peg into place gently with a rubber mallet.

I worried when I tapped the peg into place that it might dislodge the piece I had glued to the side of the center block, but I checked it with an endoscope and it was fine. The nice thing about the round hole is that since there is a tight fit it does not require clamping.

Once the glue has completely dried. it can be cut and sanded to the proper shape.

I will say that Simon, JimC, TCG, Gavin Turner and a few others have been able to get great results out of those delicate flame maple tops. Comparatively, however, it is much easier for *me* to get good results out of the back and sides. Simon and Trevor are right that if you must damage one, you look at the back a lot less often. Good advice, although for me, as I said, I really liked the look of the back and was not going to be able to do clear on the front anyway.


BTW, the more I learn about Paulownia the more it makes sense as a center block. I actually looked for a kit body for my second ES335 type bass because I wanted a Paulownia core, primarily because of the weight savings. I am guessing that Simon is right that it's cheap and easy for the Chinese to get. But it has some other good qualities too, though. It's been used in musical instruments for hundreds of years in Asia and is considered a good tone wood there. It is quite soft, but it has good crush and rupture strength. It's also easy to work and takes glues well. Plus it's the main reason a my kit ES335 bass is about a kilo lighter than a Gibson Memphis Bass. The plywood top and back compensate for Paulownia's lack of hardness....All in all, not a bad wood for the center block. I just wish they'd made it a little wider ;-)

Thanks for the thoughts Trevor, however, saving the flame maple front and back without adding more invasive options is what I'm trying to do.
Upon further measurements (thanks to Fender3x for jogging my brain) it seems that the left post hole has been drilled wide of where it should be. If it had been correct, then I wouldn't have this issue.
It's about 5mm out but enough that the tailpiece would not have sat down correctly.

So my plan is to titebond an addition to the side of the centre block for additional support, then plug the current post hole with mahogany or fill with epoxy resin and veneer flush with the surface and re-drill in the correct position. The fill should mostly if not completely be covered by the tailpiece, hopefully hiding the drama.

As to it's strength let alone tone, I guess we will see and hear once it's done.

Then again as long as I'm filling that hole, might as well fill both and inlay some Tassie Blackwood (so it looks on purpose), then add the trapeeze.

Sounds like a plan to me.

If the correct position for the hole is on the centreblock do you need to bother with all the hassle of gluing a piece on the side of the centreblock? Seems to me that simply plugging the hole and redrilling is going to be plenty good enough, and with getting a piece glued on the side of the centre block being high risk for glue spills and blood pressure, not to mention exceedingly hard to do, I wonder if it's worth it.

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Originally Posted by JimC

If the correct position for the hole is on the centreblock do you need to bother with all the hassle of gluing a piece on the side of the centreblock? Seems to me that simply plugging the hole and redrilling is going to be plenty good enough, and with getting a piece glued on the side of the centre block being high risk for glue spills and blood pressure, not to mention exceedingly hard to do, I wonder if it's worth it.

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Not at all sure where you're coming from there, Jim. The way you describe it, you have a hole that you then fill with dowel, and then you drill all the dowel out again. So you end up with the same hole. And the hole still breaches the side of the centre block.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Not at all sure where you're coming from there, Jim. The way you describe it, you have a hole that you then fill with dowel, and then you drill all the dowel out again. So you end up with the same hole. And the hole still breaches the side of the centre block.

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I was understanding him as saying that the current hole is out of position [FX:voice off:no, really?] and that the correct position would be wholly within the centreblock. So fill the hole and then drill in the revised position, which will be entirely within the repaired centreblock. But of course I may have misunderstood.

It all comes down to how things align with the center block, and how aligned the center block is to begin with.

On my first ES, the bridge holes lined up just fine with the neck, but since the neck slot was cut at a slight angle the South hole was not fully on the center block.*

I also discovered that the center block was not have been perfectly aligned to begin with. I tried to measure mine going in through the top of the f-hole, and discovered that the North f-hole was 14 mm from the center block, but the South f-hole was 17 mm from the center block. Assuming the block was straight, that meant it was 99mm wide, and off center by 3mm.

Post hole centers in an Asian TOM bridge are at about 74mm. Post Ferrules are at about 12 mm in diameter... So the outside edge of the post holes should be at about 86mm.

So if everything is perfectly aligned, figure around 6mm of wood on the outside of the post holes...+/- 3-4 mm because alignment may not be perfect. There is not a lot of margin of error, which is why I continue to think the center block in these is a few mm too narrow.

A couple of things that I found by trial and error. I did not have a problem with the ferule pushing in too far into the top due to pressure from the strings, even when almost half the ferrule was not on the center block, but there were two other problems. The bottom of the ferrule would try cant outward at the bottom, and there wasn't enough wood holding the ferule to keep it from twisting in the hole. Gluing a piece of wood onto the side of the center block solved both problems.

If when you drill the new hole it is fully over the center block, then as Jim says, you may not need the piece glued on the side. But if the hole is off or very close to the, edge gluing on a piece of wood can't hurt IMHO. I tried to get my measurements as precise as possible and add a few mm for safety. Ultimately though, it's very difficult to know exactly where the center block ends at the place where you need to put the bridge.


* I had a similar problem on the second one. The neck was not out of alignment, but the South post hole was so close to the edge of the center block, that the ferrule broke out on when I pushed it in to dry fit the bridge.

next problem now that I plan to plug the post holes for the Stop Tail piece and move to a trapeze.
The earth wire was to be attached to the post of the stop tail. Is the bridge post a viable alternative or do I need to do something mystical to attach to the trapeze somehow ?

Would appreciate any thoughts.

Cheers

Yep bridge will do the trick. You should be able to very carefully drill a hole from the bridge post hole into the main body cavity with a thin, longish bit. Doesn't matter if it's a bit of an angle.

The sonic approach is tried and true. You can also run the were to a metal trapeze. It's not mystical. You drill a hole under where the base of the trapeze is screwed to the body with a long bit just as as you would do for the post.

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