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can shellac be used as a grain filler?
i have an ash build and i started thinking that maybe i can use shellac to grain fill and paint the pores as it polymerizes very well
i'll test it of course but i want to know if the thought is even valid
thanks
I haven't personally used it, but yes, it's fairly common as a grain filler.
You can add talc to shellac to fill the grain.
See the bottom of this page.
http://www.ubeaut.com.au/talc.html
I personally wouldn't use shellac (on its own) on ash to fill the grain as you will need an awful lot of it to get a level surface. No different to using poly or any other lacquer/varnish to fill the grain. It will work, but you'll need to put an awful lot of coats on and do a lot of intermediate sanding. Use it as a sanding sealer, yes, but on its own to fill grain, no.
Talc will help bulk out the shellac to make a far more effective grain filler, but you will get a fairly white filler, so you'd have to want the dark grain turned to white, which may not be the look you are after. You may be able to stain the shellac/talc mixture afterwards, but the stain will sit on top of the shellac, so you won't get any high contrast between the basic wood and highlighted grain, and the grain would probably come through as slightly lighter (though I'm only guessing here and it may end up looking very similar but therefore quite bland in appearance). Most grain highlighting for guitars is done using a darker grain filler, and though a lighter highlight could be effective, it would look different to the norm. But, if you just want a flat surface to do a solid colour over, then it wouldn't be an issue.
What sort of finish are you trying to achieve?
i thought of mixing black color into my shellac for the grain filling.
i want to have a satin finish and not gloss.
i thought shellac would allow me to use 1 material for everything - filling and highlighting the grain, then coloring the shellac as my stain, and at the end - as my to coat as well
if i use a regular grain filler, and then use shellac as my sanding sealer (platina shellac, which is colorless?) - can i use regular stain? can i stain the shellac itself?
i have a les paul with a finish that fells very "woody" to the touch,the 2008 worn cherry or faded cherry. I think it has a thin coat of paint with something like shellac on it. no nitro or poly (if it has poly than it has a very thin coat of it that was sanded back).
i want somthing similar to the touch, but that will fade less over time
i hope that was coherent...
Arie
If it's a Gibson, then their 'worn' finishes are a few coats of satin nitro with minimal grain filling and a bit of buffing around the edges at the factory. It saves them a lot of time (and so money) to build them like that. I've got a couple of those (a Flying V and a LP Melody Maker - and I did have a LP DC Special faded). You can polish them to get a more authentic semi-gloss look (which I have done). But that's on mahogany and maple.
Maple is smooth, mahogany has pores, but they are smaller, more regular and nothing like as deep as the grain lines on ash. So a similar finish on ash would look a lot rougher, but some people are keen on that look. If you want a smooth flat surface, but still satin, just using shellac, then that's going to be a lot more work.
With the right stain you can colour shellac. I know the concentrated StuMac ColorTone will, because I've just read it when checking on ColorTone for another post, so other spirit/alcohol based stains probably will as well (but not water-based stains). But definitely try any stain/shellac mix out on scrap wood first to get the concentration right.
so: i would use a regular grain filler (water based) to fill the grain, sand it back, use shellac as my sanding sealer, stain it using spirit based dyes, and use shellac again to finish (with a lot of coats to get a semi-smooth finish)?
That's what I'd do. You could just use shellac if you really wanted to, but it will take many applications to get enough to fill a grain pattern that's maybe 1mm deep.
can the shellac itself be stained?
can i put some powder dye in the shellac-ethanol mix and use it?
I have done what you want to do with Poly but it takes a fair while to do. I did it on a mates Tele with an ash body. I sanded it as smooth as possible using 240 grit paper, blew off all the dust with compressed air and then wiped down with some shellite. I took the poly and a fine artists brush and painted the poly onto the low areas / grain which are quite visible as I used a Stanley blade and a small torch as a visual guide and as a squeegee. I painted the poly on and wiped over the top with the blade until it filled the low areas. Probably took about 2 to 10 coats depending on how deep and how thick you apply the poly. If you put the poly on thick you have to wait longer for it to dry. Once you get all the low areas filled then just paint the whole surface and it will be as flat as a piece of glass. Probably took me about 7 to 10 days to complete and the finish was perfect for my mate but I didn't do it when I did mine as I like the contours of the grain showing through finish as it gives it a unique look. Very time consuming and a test of patience but if you want a totally flat finish it is possible.
Simon has given you good advice as well some pros & cons.
I'll just add that shellac is typically not as durable as lacquers and poly's and tends to be fairly brittle for a guitar finish. Especially if applied too thick it will likely check over time. If it was a great guitar finish, all manufacturers would using it. It does have it's place(s) in guitar building though.
I have grain filled mahogany with shellac using the "slurry method" which is literally wet-sanding with shellac so that the wood dust mixes in with the shellac (like the talc Cliff mentioned) and creates a slurry, hence filling the pores.
However, my top coat there after has been either Tru Oil or an acrylic lacquer.
I'll also use shellac a sealer on a substrate that may have remnants of an unknown finish on it. My motto: If you don't know...SHELLAC IT! You can lay pretty much anything over shellac. That's one of the beauties of it.
As for using the shellac as a sanding sealer and then using alcohol based stain over it, I'm not sure how that would go.
IMO the stain is not going to penetrate the wood sufficiently and will likely just re-activate the previous coat of shellac. I could see that getting messy. I may be wrong, and can't say with certainty, as I've not done quite what you're describing.
would a water based stain work over shellac?
(it seems like an interesting material, so i wanted to see what i can do with it)
Stains and dyes work via absorption into the wood fibres, unlike paint which essentially adheres to it.Quote:
would a water based stain work over shellac?
If there is any substance such as glues, oils, sanding sealer (shellac) etc, they will repel the stain and therefore not allow penetration into the wood fibres.
A search of the web shows that you can stain over shellac, but you pretty much have to then apply more shellac over the top of it to seal the colour in. As McCreed says, the stain won't penetrate it, so will sit on top, and without protection, it will rub off. My gut feeling is that without spraying on the shellac over the stain, at least the first few coats, you're likely to rub off stain in patches if you rub on more shellac.
There are a whole list of things that are possible to do, but very few of them are the best way to do things.