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Hey all,
For my ES-1GT build I am contemplating this process:
1. Walnut Timbermate
2. F&W Sanding Sealer
3. ColorTone
4. TruOil
I've read different versions of this throughout the forums - some say no sanding sealer, some say shrinkage of timbermate WILL happen.
Thoughts? Will this give me a nice glossy finish that I desire? I have probably half a tin of nitro clear - should I use that instead and risk not having enough?
Cheers,
Glen
Hi Glen.
I presume you're intent for the Timbermate is to accentuate the grain?
If that's the case, I'm not sure you'll gain much applying it to veneer. I may be wrong as I've not used it on veneer, but maple is not an open pore timber (like ash or mahogany) so there's no much to "fill". Also, you've probably read repeatedly about how thin the veneer is on these kits, so minimal sanding is advised to avoid sand-through.
Personally I don't use sanding sealer if applying stain. If you're concerned about uneven staining, you're better off using a pre-stain conditioner, sometimes called anti-blotching treatment. This is not the same as sanding sealer.
Sanding sealer can also be used for pore filling to a slight degree, but should not be confused with or considered a grain filler.
If I were grain filling with Timbermate (with ash, mahogany or other open pore timber) I wouldn't use a sanding sealer over the Timbermate.
I used Cherry ColorTone on the ash Tele in the pic below, however the supplier I bought it from sold it "pre-diluted" (my mistake) and it was too light to give the depth I wanted, so I ended up finishing it with U-Beaut Wood Dye (just plain "Red") and used it neat (undiluted). I grain filled the ash with ebony Timbermate, dyed with ColorTone/U-Beaut and then top coated with DIY wipe-on poly.
Attachment 38334
The PRS-TS1 below, is done with no grain filling, alcohol based aniline dye (mixed by me) and top coated with Tru-Oil.
These two guitars might give you an idea of what some of your products will look like.
Attachment 38335
FWIW neither guitar had sanding sealer or pre-stain conditioner on them.
Amazing reply, thanks McCreed. Yes I was thinking about accentuating the grain, though after I posted here I did think that it might not be much use to that.
I really like the finishes that you've achieved here. They are pretty much what I want to achieve so perhaps a simple process of ColorTone + TruOil is all I'm after.
Do you think TruOil will yellow the cherry ColorTone? I'd love a vintage cherry look but haven't had much luck finding a 'vintage' stain.
Here is a pic of the back of PRS-TS-1 which was a mix of red aniline dye powder (in alcohol) and Angelus "brandy". I was going for that vintage cherry vibe. It has Tru Oil over it and I don't think it effected the original colour at all despite the TO having a naturally amber tone to it.
Attachment 38339
Note: the body is basswood and the neck is mahogany.
Edit to add:
I have noticed the white binding has yellowed more since 2018, but I kind of like it tbh. Gives it a vintage look.
Hi Glen
I am a true believer in Colortone and Tru-Oil.
I have never used filler on Maple or Basswood, just lots of coats of TruOil.
If you want the learners view of Colortone and Tru-Oil builds, see my build diaries below. All good in the end, learned lots and enjoyed the challenge.
Despite the "dramas", I am extremely happy with the finished products.
Just be patient as you will need a lot of coats of TruOil but it will fill the grain (Not Mahogany or Ash though - they need Timbermate)
Don't hesitate to ask the Forum. There are very experience guys on it always willing to help.
Greg
ColorTone in itself is just another dye, nothing overly special about it. The benefits are that it is a known quantity so you can mix colours (in known ratios as given on the StewMac site), to get a load of intermediate colours. The powders can be mixed with water or alcohol, or used to tint lacquers.
As you have binding on your guitar, avoid alcohol based stain. It will get deep into all the tiny stress cracks in the binding that you can't see. Water-based stain is less penetrating and may sit on the top the larger cracks but can be scraped off.
I used an Indian red water based stain on my ES-1 the first time I did it, which was fine, but my Tru-Oil finish sanded through so I had to strip it right back and stain again. I then used a spirit-based heritage cherry stain and this was the result.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/8...924/IsT8dw.jpg
I couldn't get rid of it so I ended up having to paint the binding. The binding cracks are pretty universal across all kits with binding, and you get more on the sharp bends and almost none on the straighter edges.
So I'd go alcohol/spirit based stains for all-wood guitars, and water-based for guitars with bindings.
FWIW, I have white binding on that PRS build above and no problem scraping it clean after using alcohol dyes.Quote:
As you have binding on your guitar, avoid alcohol based stain. It will get deep into all the tiny stress cracks in the binding that you can't see. Water-based stain is less penetrating and may sit on the top the larger cracks but can be scraped off.
I did mask it well and it didn't bleed too badly. Maybe because the top was amber and only the sides/back were red also has something to do with it. When I did the top & sides, it was elevated and laying flat (front up). The amber is less prominent than red, and maybe there was not enough capillary action for the red to go up. Dunno...
We all have different experiences and results.
It may also depend on the quality of the binding material used (different factories, different binding suppliers), or maybe because I'd already scraped the binding once. But there are countless builds on here with stain in the binding cracks. And once it's in there, it's not coming out! Better safe than sorry.
Also, the ES-1 binding is thicker white/black/white black layered binding, whilst McCreed's PRS-style binding looks to be a much thinner single ply binding, so was probably far more flexible and went on without any major/deep stress cracks when bent. Glenwilliam's build is another ES-1, so I'd expect it to be similar to mine.
I have had no trouble with metho in colour tone on my LP or ES. I found that water brings up too much grain
I'd prefer to assume it will, rather than it won't. Raised grain can be dealt with, it really isn't much of a problem, but stained cracked binding is a lot harder, and painting it really is about the only solution that I found worked.
That is a good point and reasonable consideration. It would be an interesting experiment if one had some scraps of the different bindings.Quote:
Also, the ES-1 binding is thicker white/black/white black layered binding, whilst McCreed's PRS-style binding looks to be a much thinner single ply binding, so was probably far more flexible and went on without any major/deep stress cracks when bent.
Probably sounds crazy, but have you ever tried bleach on a cotton bud? (cotton swab)Quote:
...and painting it really is about the only solution that I found worked.
I have no idea if it would react poorly on the plastic, but maybe not.
No I haven't. Plastic should be OK though with it.
Some really good knowledge and advice in this thread, thank you all.
Are you saying I shouldn't purchase something pre-diluted? Like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ColorTon...-/132129688971
I agree with McCreed
I think the prediluted is already at the 30:1. That ratio is suggested in the StewMac doco.
I have found it too light and use about 15:1(metho). I used 8:1 and 1:1 covering trying to cover glue marks and scratches on my ES.
You could use lots of coats at 30:1 but I have been unable to achieve my required depth of colour.
It is expensive but "she who must be obeyed" will tell you to stop building guitars before you use a bottle.
I think TransTint is the same as ColorTone with emphasis on the "think".
Pre-diluting to that extent is an easy way for the seller to maximise their profit by simply adding water, and without a detailed chemical analysis it would be impossible to say whether it was a true 30:1 mix (actually the normal 1oz to 1 quart would be a 32:1 mix), and may well be diluted a lot more in reality. StuMac don't give duff advice, so the standard mix should be fine for obtaining a good stained finish.
But what works well on light wood won't be as effective on a darker wood, so I'd always look to buy something more concentrated that can be mixed as necessary to suit the situation.
That is the Seller I bought it from. I wouldn't buy from him again.Quote:
Originally Posted by glenwilliam
Funnily enough I bought the same one from the same vendor, and I didn't have any issue with it on the HB-4, it came up the colour I was after. I think I'd probably have preferred it if what was being sold was the strain and not premixed... I kinda like the control of mixing myself and choosing what carrier to dilute it in. The problem with stain is once you get to a certain point, the colour doesn't deepen no matter how many coats you put on, unless you mix up some more with a more concentrated dilution. kinda a shame it isn't more like a candy.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
I'll also add that when I switched to the U-Beaut timber dye (also water based) I used it undiluted to achieve the result you see on that TLA. U-Beaut has a 7-colour kit that cost me $39 (7 x 50ml bottles) I used less than 25ml to do that body.
Not sure what part of Brissie you're in, but there is a Woodturners Supply shop at The Gap. That's where I got mine.
They are truly old school and their website is horrible, but they're a nice old couple that run it.
Thanks for the tip! I do like the colour of your TLA - not as bright as the ColorTone cherry so maybe I can achieve that more vintage-look with the U-beaut dyes.. either way, worth the investment to check them out for that price. I'm in Coorparoo so will venture north!Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
Better pack a lunch!Quote:
I'm in Coorparoo so will venture north!
They sell them here also:
https://www.carbatec.com.au/brands/u-beaut
And there's a store on the southside so I might try them there. Website seems more this-century too!
I also found this thread
https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...ead.php?t=7755
For anyone reading who wants more words about U-Beaut.
Good stuff Glen!
I have only made online purchases from Carbatec. I'm afraid if I went into their physical store, I'd be like a kid in a candy store and have a hard time leaving without an empty wallet! (of course my wallet is usually empty anyway :o)
U-beaut website has tips on using their dye here for anyone interested. They have all sorts of good stuff, from shellacs to polishes too...
I made several trips there when I was building my canoe. I's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole there <chuckle>. Just have a look at the prices of Festool stuff, that will bring you back to reality. They also have a nice selection of veneers if anyone decides to change their top.Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed
Jumping in on this conversation, as I'm aiming to achieve a similar effect as McCreed's TL on an Ash ST, only I want it to be darker (blood-like).
I've started with ebony timbermate grain filler, and am thinking of applying a diluted black stain to darken the overall the body colour, and hopefully make the grain pop a bit more, then go over with a red ink stain, followed by tru-oil.
I'm a bit hesitant over spirit-based vs water-based combinations here, so correct me if I'm "wrong", but does this order work?:
- Timbermate grain filler
- FW spirt stain
- Acrylic ink
- Tru-oil
Maybe I should swap out the ink for U beaut, after reading this thread.
For pure stains/dyes, alcohol/spirit or water is only the solvent used, the dye/stain itself is basically the same fine powder. So once the solvent's evaporated, there's really no difference in the result and you can put exactly the same stuff over it.
I find spirit based stuff easier to work and blend, though it has less surface tension and gets into small cracks in binding a lot easier than water based stain does.
But some stains do have a 'fixer' element, basically a varnish, that will lock them in place once they dry, so that can limit some of the finishing options, especially when blending or when re-staining areas.
Great, thanks Simon.
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Further to what Simon posted, my TL was done with: Timbermate (which is water based), water based dye and then clear coated with oil based poly.
I make my own wipe-on poly by mixing 50/50 turps/poly (Cabothane Gloss) and had no issues with the water based products underneath, other than the normal "lift" you get with the first few coats. Just to reiterate, that is normal if being applied by wiping on with a cloth and typically not a problem with a single colour stain.
If you do go with the U-beaut dyes, I reckon you could mix the Red and Black (Green Black*) or the Cedar to get the exact colour you're after.
I recommend being very methodical and using accurate measures, and most importantly, WRITE IT DOWN so the colour can be recreated if you need more or have to do a repair down the track.
I did a mod/repair for a customer early this year on his Epiphone 335 which involved reshaping the headstock to a Gibson-style "open book". The 335 was the classic vintage cherry which I had to match, and did it successfully with my U-beaut dyes. Unfortunately I can't find my recipe at the moment, but will have a look for if you're interested.
I'm pretty sure it was the Red and Cedar that got me there.
I'll see if I can find a photo of the finished guitar (had a major computer crash after the job).
*re: the Green Black - It does have a slight greenish tinge to it but it will dry to a black, but not not a solid black - if that makes any sense. It will definitely darken other colours it's mixed with though.
Yeah, if you can dig out a picture that would be appreciated (but not expected or demanded).
I have all the other ingredients, but will make the trek to timbecon if that feels like a better option.
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+1 for interest in this special recipe :)Quote:
Originally Posted by McCreed