Jon's 3rd build: DTL-1

Well, with my first two guitars nearly finished, it must be time to start a new one, and here it is.

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This is the swamp ash body, and it really is quite hefty. It's very nicely finished - no dings or glue that I can find. I had to get a replacement neck, and the new one doesn't fit quite as nicely as the original, so there's a bit of work there first job.

I'd like to have a go at a nitro finish, and I'd like to make the most of the grain, so I'm planning the following finishing schedule:

Raise the grain with a damp cloth and sand back.
Ebony timber mate - possibly a few coats sanded between.
Sanding sealer - I think FW is compatible with nitro. Possibly a few coats sanded between.
Once it's good and flat, nitro colour (translucent blue) then clear.

The pick guard that I have doesn't seem to sit well with the bridge, but I think I'll replace it with a cream 3-ply. Will any tele pick guard will fit? Depending on how the neck looks with that, I might try and age it a bit with a dilute stain like golden teak.

I'm more used to set necks. Once the neck's fitting well, I'll clamp that in place, secure the bridge with a couple of screws, and make sure the E strings run nicely down the neck and the scale length i good.

I'm looking forward to this build. I suspect it's going take quite a while and that's OK - I want to make the best job I can of the finish.

When you've got a screw-on neck, I don't really see any need to use a clamp, as screwing the neck on will give you the neck angle you'll get at the end, allowing you to position the bridge correctly. Just remember to drill out the body holes to the same diameter as the fixing screws first (which allows the screws to pull the neck down tight). Though you may first want to plug and re-drill those mounting holes. As normal, the factory can't drill holes in the right position to save their lives. Those holes look about 3° off centre to me. And they probably won't line up with the holes in the neck plate.

Tele scratchplates are normally similar sizes. The only area where you may have an issue is the neck cut-out, as these come in slightly different shapes. But you have a 22-fret neck with an overhang, which will hide any small gaps there are. You'll also need to decide whether to get one with top-mounting holes for the neck pickup or not. With the 22-fret neck, I'd suggest you do top-mount the neck pickup, otherwise you'll need to remove the neck to get the scratchplate off every time you want to try and adjust it.

I'd suggest using a nitro-based sanding sealer if you are spraying nitro on the top, for guaranteed compatibility. As I have a spray gun I'd just use very thinned clear lacquer (as Stew Mac suggest in their guitar finish book), but if using cans, then a dedicated nitro sanding sealer should be available. But there are several ways you can grain fill and seal the surface, and my suggestion is just one of them. But I do prefer to keep all the finish products the same type. If you don't know about compatibility, then always test on a test piece of wood first. Sometimes a finish may look compatible (no immediate bubbling or crinkling), but then you find that it remains soft under a hard surface and never fully cures/dries all the way through.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Sometimes a finish may look compatible (no immediate bubbling or crinkling), but then you find that it remains soft under a hard surface and never fully cures/dries all the way through.

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Can confirm. :(

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

When you've got a screw-on neck, I don't really see any need to use a clamp, as screwing the neck on will give you the neck angle you'll get at the end, allowing you to position the bridge correctly. Just remember to drill out the body holes to the same diameter as the fixing screws first (which allows the screws to pull the neck down tight). Though you may first want to plug and re-drill those mounting holes. As normal, the factory can't drill holes in the right position to save their lives. Those holes look about 3° off centre to me. And they probably won't line up with the holes in the neck plate.

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OK, so the general approach is to get the neck fitted, and then position the bridge to suit (rather than the other way round as is the case with pre-drilled bridge post holes and a set neck a la G style guitar.) I tried to line the body holes up with the neck plate, and they are somewhat out - would you plug them with dowel rather than just fill them?

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Tele scratchplates are normally similar sizes. The only area where you may have an issue is the neck cut-out, as these come in slightly different shapes. But you have a 22-fret neck with an overhang, which will hide any small gaps there are. You'll also need to decide whether to get one with top-mounting holes for the neck pickup or not. With the 22-fret neck, I'd suggest you do top-mount the neck pickup, otherwise you'll need to remove the neck to get the scratchplate off every time you want to try and adjust it.

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There's no way I would have picked that up until I came to adjust the pickup height ;-) Thanks. Should the fretboard sit fairly flush with the pick guard? I have quite a gap between the body and the 'board at the moment, and the only way I can see I could reduce that would be to shave the heal down.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

I'd suggest using a nitro-based sanding sealer if you are spraying nitro on the top, for guaranteed compatibility.

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Yes, fair enough. I was thinking of using the FW purely because I already have it, but a can of nitro sanding sealer isn't going to stretch the budget.

That's pretty standard for a Tele. The pickguard will fill most of that gap. It's more noticeable because of the overhang but just look at a picture of a 21-fret Tele and you'll see a similar overall fretboard height above the body.

There's no built-in neck angle on a Tele or Strat (far too complicated for Leo Fender to have ever considered using), so the necessary height above the body for the strings to clear the pickups and be high enough for the bridge comes from that neck height above the body. Gibsons, with a built-in angled neck, have fretboards that normally sit just above the body; their string height is provided by the neck angle.

I spoke to Anthony at Sydney Guitar Setups (from where I've bought the paint) today. He suggested that I try to get a local auto body repair shop to do 2-pack clear coat as a sealer (and presumably filler) because the ash is so porous. Now I'm a little confused! I've watched quite a few Youtubes of people finishing swamp ash bodies, and the filler / (nitro) sealer / nitro colour / nitro clear approach seems to be a well trodden path.

It is a standard route. Less than ash is so porous, but more that the grain lines are relatively deep compared to other woods, so more filling is required.

It's the grain filling that needs care. Almost any standard filler will shrink a bit as the solvent (be it oil or water-based) dries out. Water-based will shrink the most and be most likely to be affected by another application on top. So it's worthwhile letting the grain filler really dry for a few days after the final application to allow it to shrink as much as possible before you sand it back flat.

The only non-shrinking filler I know of is made by Solarez, which is UV curing so has no solvent to dry out. But it's both hard to find and quite expensive outside the US. I bought a tub, and it is good and cures within a couple of minutes on a bright day, though I haven't used it on anger on any build yet as none have needed grain filling. But you can't stain it, so best for jobs where you don't want to highlight the grain, or else you stain then sand back first for highlighting.

You really don't want to go mixing different finishes in my opinion. If you start out with 2K, you may as well stick with it for the complete finish.

OK, thanks Simon. I've ordered some nitro sanding sealer.

In the meantime, I've plugged the neck holes. There was just one that was quite out of alignment, so I was just going to plug that, but then I found that none of them were drilled perpendicular to the body, so I plugged all of them.

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I've sanded the corners of the neck heal so that the neck fits nicely now, albeit rather snug. With the neck fitted, and a line run down the middle of the neck (judged by the middle of the inlays, but then measured to make sure) the bridge screw holes are somewhat out of line. They all measure 666mm from the nut (which doesn't match up with what Stew Mac says) but with the neck and bridge fitted, a straight edge run along the top of the neck just meets the low E saddle adjustment screw, while run along the bottom edge, it misses the high E saddle by a couple of mm. So I think I'm going to plug them as well, and re-drill.

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Be a bit wary of the StewMac hole distances as they’ll refer to a classic Tele ashtray bridge (or classic Strat trem or Gibson Tune-O-Matic etc). Other Tele style bridges can be a bit longer or shorter and have holes in different locations. It’s the distance to the saddles that’s important. And I’d drill the neck mounting holes and screw the neck on before re-drilling the bridge mounting holes. Despite best efforts, the screws may go in at slight angles and force a slightly different neck angle. Even a 0.5° tilt from expected can shift the required bridge position slightly, so you may end up having to fill and drill them again.

Yes, good point. I'm actually thinking of doing all the grain filling before I drill the holes, so I don't get them full of runny filler.

Well, I've made some good progress but also had a couple of setbacks.

I dowelled the neck bolt holes because they were in the wrong place and drilled at an angle far from perpendicular to the body, which went well. I then re-drilled them and fitted the neck OK.

I also dowelled the bridge screw holes, because they were also in the wrong place and drilled at strange angles. I suspect that this may have all fitted together with the original neck, but I had to get a replacement because the first one I received had all the frets on the bass side between the 1st and 9th fret filed back way too far. Anyway, I re-drilled the bridge screw holes, and now the bridge and neck fit OK and the strings run reasonably nicely down the neck.

In the meantime, I had also given the body a coat of ebony timber mate, and sanded back. I ended up sanding pretty much all of it off to get rid of all the scratches and machining marks, but I'm pretty happy with it now.

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At this point (i.e. after sanding, but before re-drilling holes) I gave it another coat of timbermate, and left it for a few days to let the filler shrink. Unfortunately, when I came back to it, I found that the body has split along the join.

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I'm pretty unhappy about that. I'm guessing I can just fill that crack, but how can I be confident that it's not going to reoccur?

I must admit, given that this is supposed to the the "premium" TL kit, I'm pretty disappointed at the moment.

I also started to drill the holes for the string ferrules, and completely failed to get them in a straight line, so I'm going to have to dowel them and start again. I drilled the two end holes through from the front, and then used the bridge as a template for the holes on the back. I just really struggle to get hole position mm perfect with my drill press - the holes for the ferrules are 8mm, so the slightest variation in line or spacing os very obvious. I think I'll dowel them, and then try again with a hand drill.

Right, ferrule holes fixed. Not perfect, but I'm happy with them. I've filled the crack, so we'll see how that goes.

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Wow!
That should not happen under any circumstances.
The fact that it has split for a couple of inches, calls into question the integrity of the entire join and therefore filling would just be hiding it and not fixing the issue. There is not a fix that I would consider permanent. Wood glue would not penetrate (the whole point of Aliphatic). Cyano would wick in but may not bond to the glue already in there etc.

I would contact Adam if I were you.

Sorry.
Cheers
Ricky

Thanks Ricky. I'll drop the PBG guys a line tomorrow

PBG's advice is to glue and clamp the body. As I've filled it, I think I have a problem - I can't get the filler out. Given where the split is, it doesn't really seem feasible to clamp it anyway.

They did offer to replace the body. If I do that, do I also need to replace the neck, given that I've already drilled the holes for it? If not, would I just need to dowel the neck holes and re-drill them? I wouldn't have thought that would be as strong.

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I have the same issue with my TL body. I bought it a good few months ago and never really looked at it much until this week so probably too late to get replaced. I shall be having a go at gluing and clamping.


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Originally Posted by jonwhitear

They did offer to replace the body. If I do that, do I also need to replace the neck, given that I've already drilled the holes for it? If not, would I just need to dowel the neck holes and re-drill them? I wouldn't have thought that would be as strong.

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There's a good chance that the holes will end up in the same place so no need to do anything. Otherwise, as long as you use hardwood dowel, plugging and redrilling will be plenty strong enough. I have three guitars with plugged/redrilled neck holes and they are all fine.

Thanks Guys.

Freakystyley, I'd be interested to see how you go with clamping yours. I would have thought that if you clamp across the body of the guitar, most of the pressure would go through the body where it isn't cracked. I wouldn't have though there would be enough leverage to close the gap, as you can't really clamp exactly where the crack is. I'm regretting going at mine with the filler so hastily now, as I haven't addressed the cause of the problem - just papered over the cracks ;-)

Simon, thanks, now I'm more comfortable on the neck front.

I'm leaning towards just getting the body replaced. I've put quite a few hours of work into this one, but I'd rather start over than have the possibility of this crack reappearing playing on my mind.

If I hadn’t have left mine so long I would have gotten a replacement too. It’s the safest option.
My plan for clamping is to trace the shape of the lower body io to mdf and cut out the shape, keeping the outside ends of the mdf straight. If I slightly shorten the inside edges then I can clamp the straight edges applying pressure directly to the crack. As you can see from this very detailed scientific diagram of the cutout I should hopefully be able to put pressure on the crack. Probably need to line the inside of the cutout with cloth or something to prevent marking the body. That’s my plan but if anyone can think of anything better. My last option is to fill and solid colour
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d0917b735e.jpg


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That's, FWLIW, certainly what I would do. Leather might well be better than cloth for the padding. Old guitar strap?

Or trouser belt.

If I were to fix that, I would do it another way.
Gluing and clamping may hold for a short while but the joint would remain with a 'parting' force at the glue line. It will fail.

I would cut a slot across the split on the end-grain and insert a biscuit (sometimes called a 'Dutchman'). A normal dutchman is rebated into the surface but inset to the end-grain would be less obvious and stronger. Then fill the existing split with epoxy mixed with sand-dust.

Just search google for 'woodwork dutchman'.

Cheers
Ricky

From personal experience with timber mate and similar styled products. The use of these items with too much water can and has caused joined wood to swell and split. Joined timber does not really do well with lots of water.

The consistency of the timber filler you want is like thick custard, slightly thicker than a thick shake.

Just be careful with water around holes as well....it can cause swelling and if there are veneers and or laminates at play they can even lift off.

Honestly, I did this once in the past.....leave the body to dry for about a week. I wedged a sanded down end of a guitar pick into the crack....used a toothpick to apply some good quality glue....like Tite Bond.....original or 2...not the exterior one as it is waterproof and will not allow you to clean up.

Then I used ratchet straps wrap around the body to pull it tight. I put waxed paper, grease proof paper, over the seam of the glue. Then put some small piles of business cards under the metal pieces of the straps to stop any marks.

I used three straps all wound around the body....I have also seen strips cut from bicycle tyre tubes....stretched and tied or pegged to secure them.

I left mine for about 2 days like this.

Just got up and checked it....and you can see the change in grain between the two pieces of wood....but no crack. That guitar was re-joined 5 years ago.

I wish you luck....you will be fine....short of having to split the body and re-glueing it.

PBG have replaced the body without question - their customer service really is good.

I feel a bit silly now - more recent posts suggest that the split was probably fixable. I think what I'll do with that body is to finish it to the point that it's sealed (i.e. a coat or so of TruOil) and then put it aside. I haven't decided whether I'll try to remove the filler I used and to glue it. If it's still OK in a few months, I probably won't be able to resist making a guitar out of it, in which case I'll go back to PBG with my tail between my legs and pay them for the replacement, and try to scrounge up the rest of the parts for a guitar from somewhere! I don't really need two TLs, but hey.

In the meantime, I have the new body. The plan is to still do a transparent blue nitro finish, so I'll go through the process of timbermate and sanding. The new body has a little damage to the lower horn that doesn't look like a dent, so I don't think it'll come out with the steam iron, though I haven't tried that yet. Any ideas how to address this other than filling it? (I'm not going to rush into that so quickly this time.) It's also got a couple of cracks on the edge that look like they've been covered in glue.

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Unfortunately the neck bolt holes don't line up with the holes I have already drilled in the neck. I could try plugging and re-drilling the holes in the body to see if I can get them to line up with the neck, but I can't think of a way to do that reliably. The alternative would be to plug the holes in the neck and just re-drill them. I'd welcome any recommendations!

If I were doing that build, I would just sand out that ding in the horn. I would also have a go at sanding those cracks in the end grain as well. The don't look that deep and it would be good to at least make sure that all the glue (or filler???) is gone from there.

With the horn, I know it will alter the traditional tele shape a bit, but I personally prefer making the edges & horns more rounded than standard strats & teles anyway, but that's just me...

What McCreed said.

Plug the holes in the neck itself and re-drill those.

And, what Simon said about plugging the neck...

I meant to comment on that in the previous post but Mrs. McCreed called me for dinner!!!

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Originally Posted by McCreed

If I were doing that build, I would just sand out that ding in the horn.

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Thanks McCreed - I don't know why I didn't think of that ;-)

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Plug the holes in the neck itself and re-drill those.

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I needed to make a "handle" to hold the body while I paint it, so I figured I'd use that as template to transfer the neck bolt hole positions from the old body to the new one, and if that didn't work, I could just plug and re-drill.

So I fitted the "handle" to old body, put marks on it using the neck bolts through the holes, drilled them out, fitted the handle to new body, used the holes and bolts to make marks on the new body, and then drilled them out.

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That seems to have worked OK. Before I mark out where the bridge goes, I'd be grateful for confirmation that my neck placement is OK. The neck is a very snug fit in the pocket, though the treble side of the pocket isn't a straight route, so there's a bit of a gap. Also, the neck itself slightly overhangs the body on the bass side.

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Does this look OK, or should I try to reshape the pocket? I should have noticed this before I drilled the bolt holes, but that's hindsight for you.

Cheers, Jon.

Most important thing is the string alignment between nut and bridge.

Is the neck finished yet? If it isn’t finished you may find that once it is finished it will be too tight, so you may need to tidy up the bass side of the pocket. The neck slightly overhanging the body on the treble side shouldn’t affect playability, it is just a minor aesthetic issue.

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Originally Posted by Fretworn

Most important thing is the string alignment between nut and bridge.

Is the neck finished yet? If it isn’t finished you may find that once it is finished it will be too tight, so you may need to tidy up the bass side of the pocket. The neck slightly overhanging the body on the treble side shouldn’t affect playability, it is just a minor aesthetic issue.

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Thanks Fretty - the neck isn't finished, and it is a tight fit, so I suspect I will need to sand the pocket a little. I have also glued a veneer shim into the pocket just to straighten out the edge a little.

I've had a bit of a revelation over the last couple of days.

I had been really struggling to get a clean look with grain filler used to fill the pores on the end grain (and all around the edges.) I'd fill it, and then be sanding for hours to try to get rid of muddiness, by which time there would be no filler left at all.

I did a bit of reading, and found that people recommend spraying a coat of clear before the filler, to seal the smaller pores, so I gave that a go. I used the clear rather than sanding sealer as I wanted the film to be as thin as possible. I left that to dry over night, and then filled with a timbermate slurry as normal, and then left that to dry overnight before sanding. The result was really good - it was much easier to sand back, especially around the edges. I've now sprayed a coat of sanding sealer, and here's how it looks.

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That's nice

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Originally Posted by dozymuppet

That's nice

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Thanks DM. I've since sprayed a can of transparent blue, which has reminded my how bad at spray painting I am. Unfortunately I had the nozzle oriented incorrectly on the first coat, so I've got some banding going on. I also had quite a few runs, but they have mostly sanded out. This wasn't the colour I had in mind - it's rather more green than I had expected. I shall get another can of colour, and hopefully it will darken up and even out.

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Possibly a good colour for another project :) (what is it, by the way?)

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It’s transparent blue nitro from SydneyGuitarSetups.

http://www.sydneyguitarsetups.com/ni...stralia-guitar

Interesting. So that's one whole can already gone? Doesn't quite feel like enough for the job.

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Yes that’s one whole can. How much of it ended up on the guitar is another matter.

Here it as after the second can of blue nitro. I think my technique must have improved, as this seemed to go on much better, i.e. quickly made a big difference to the depth of the colour.

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In the meantime, I've also shaped the headstock, stained the neck with dilute FW Golden Teak, and applied a couple of coats of Tru Oil. There's a natural maple offcuts there for comparison of the colour.

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That body colour looks great. It's just screaming for a white pearloid pickguard!