Could someone check this diagram please?

Hi there,

Completely new on this forum and to guitar wiring.
I refurbished my old guitar and want to change the wiring too.
I came up with this idea (it's not new, i'm sure)

3 humbuckers
3 DPDT switches for split/serial/parallel
3 concentric pots for volume/tone with a bleed circuit in
3 way switch for neck/all/bridge

Could someone please check this diagram and comment please?
The part which I'm not very certain if is the 'ALL' position of the 3way switch.

I'd like to have it 'ALL' to be able to mix different sounds together there (adapting volume, DPDT, tone of the individual PU's)

Thanks a lot already!
PeterAttachment 37927

Hi and welcome.

The switch shown in that diagram won't do what you want it to. It's a standard 3-way switch, which is two normally closed SPST switches combined into one unit, which basically gives you two input terminals and one output terminal. You'll need something with three input terminals and the ability to do what you want in the way of output selection Not sure where you'll get one like that, though Switchcraft do some strange combinations for their toggle switches, but then you'll have to find one.

You've only got one output shown for each of the DPDT selector switches. so that won't work as you'll need two. The green wire isn't automatically connected to ground.

You'll also need to confirm what sort version of on/on/on switch you are getting, as in the mid position, there's a choice of two connection options depending on the switch - 1) L centre to L upper and R centre to R lower or 2) L centre to L lower and R centre to R upper.
You're missing a signal connection shown to the tone part of the pot and if that's drawn shown looking from the rear of the guitar (so you are seeing the back of the pot as if installed in the control cavity) then the two volume pot end tab connections are all swapped over (unless you are a lefty and using reverse log pots).

If you want to be able to turn one of the pickups off in the 'all on' position (assuming we can find a suitable switch), then you'll need to ditch the treble bleeds, as the treble on the pot that's turned off be will be fully in circuit and most of the treble and mids will pass through it to ground, leaving you with just the bass part of the signal. I assume this is your intent (allowing a mid+neck and neck+bridge combo) as you've shown the volume pots with the input and output lugs swapped over from the normal way of doing things I'd take the tone pot input from the pot output. Hopefully Weirdy will be along fairly shortly and he'll at least be able to give you a wiring diagram for the pot, switch and pickups.

The Switchcraft site seems to be down at the moment, so I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can find an appropriate switch. I think it's the one Gibson use for their 3-pickup SGs, but they do several along those lines.

Switchcraft site back up. Some of their more specialist switches seem to have been discontinued since the last time I looked a few weeks ago.

But this would do it: http://www.switchcraft.com/Product.aspx?ID=3343

Two sets of SPST switches per side. The top set you wire as normal with the neck and bridge pickups. With the bottom pair, you wire the middle pickup to one side, then feed the output from that side into the input of the other side and the output to the common output of the top pair. If the switch is in either the up or down position, one of the second set of contacts will be broken so no signal gets through. Only in the middle position will both sets of contacts be made so the signal gets through and is connected to the output of both the neck and bridge pickups.

So you need to find a Switchcraft 12015x to do what you want to do. It's wider, but no deeper, than a standard Switchcraft selector switch.

Dear Simon,

Thank you so much for your input. I understand what I did wrong and wil try to 'rewire my drawing'.
Of course if Weirdy would come up with a finished drawing, that would help even a lot more.

The switch you propose is available over here (Belgium) so this shouldn't be an issue.

I'll get back to you with a new drawing, unless Weirdy beats me on that :-)

Laters

Sorry, suffering local network outage the last couple of days and still intermittent at the moment. Good advice and analysis from Simon, as always. I can draw something up but it may take a few days.

What type of guitar are you refurbishing? If possible, I’d suggest using two 3-way toggles for the three pickups. The single toggle suggested above will give bridge/all/neck as you wanted, but two 3-way toggles allows all options:
switch 1 = bridge/bridge+neck/neck.
switch 2 = middle/middle+switch 1/switch 1 only.

The main difference being you’re switching pickup combinations rather than adjusting volumes to mix pups, plus you can include treble bleeds with a two 3-way layout. Just a suggestion if you can make it fit. I’ll do some drawing when I get a chance.

Hi there,
Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out.

I'm afraid there is no way to fit another switch in, but i'll take a look. (I had a pickguard custom made, so wonder if I can drill a hole in it :-)

Is there no way to go for the first option and keep the treble bleeds?

Also, if I keep the original (simple) 3-way toggle, would this work?
up: Neck only with mid vol down
down: bridge only with mid vol down
mid: everything

If you could come up with a drawing, that would be so much easier for me, as I only understand half of what i'm doing exactely.

yours,
Peter

Connecting the tone pot to the volume pot output, rather than input to it ('vintage' wiring), stops treble loss when turning the volume down. It does make the tone and volume controls slightly interactive, but it's how I wire my humbucker guitars these days and it's not a big issue. You don't then need any treble bleeds.

If you really want treble bleeds and 'modern' wiring, you could try wiring the cap and resistor in series (AKA Kinman -style). The cap then won't be directly connected between the signal and ground when one volume pot is turned right down, but have the 100k resistor in series; limiting the amount of treble that's lost to almost nothing. And it does work well as a treble bleed. It's how I wire treble bleeds on my Strats and Teles.

Would this type of switch also work? I think I could fit 2 of these in easier than the 'normal' ones.
Also ... can't seem to find 'm in all black. But that's a minor problem.

Tbh, one of the **** things about living in Belgium is that there are so little (to none) specialized guitar part stores. It all comes with a lot of shipping cost. But this on a sidenote :-)

Attachment 37964

You could use two of them, so neck and bridge feed into switch 1 and you then feed switch 1 output and the middle pickup into switch two. That gives you all the individual pickup selections and all the pickup combinations.

Or you could use one 3-way switch and a mini 2-way toggle switch that allows you to bring in the middle pickup with whatever pickup(s) you've selected. That gives you all the combinations except a simple selection of the middle pickup on its own - but you could turn the volumes of the neck and bridge down to get that. It would also look neater on the guitar than two large switches.

I'm not a fan of that particular style of 3-way switch. They seem far more prone to mechanical damage than the Switchcraft style and an inwards knock on the end of the switch tip can see the switch stop working completely. I'd prefer a Korean-made one (as shown) to a Chinese-made one (which I've seen stop working without any mechanical damage to them), but they are still less reliable than the Switchcraft type.

I'm still a bit confused. Would it be an option to keep the 1 toggle configuration like it is now (but wired properly of course :-)
If I wire the mid PU together with the neck PU to the toggle, Can I turn down the volume of one of the PU's to have the other on?
toggle up: neck + mid (so with either volume down: mid solo or neck solo)
toggle mid: neck + mid + bridge (with volume altering: all combinations possible)
toggle down: brigde only

I'm sorry I don't understand more of it. I hope to be soldering pretty soon, but might need a guiding hand until then.
Thanks so much

Yes, you could do that. You'd definitely have to wire the volume pots as you've shown in your first wiring diagram (except with the order reversed) so that the pickup output wire goes to the middle tab/lug (the wiper), and the pot output comes from the end lug, rather than the more common wiring (for most guitars) where the pickup output wire goes to the end lug, and the pot output comes from the middle lug.

Otherwise you'll kill all the selected pickups output when one volume pot is turned down as the common output will be taken to ground through it.

I’m drawing up a few different layouts, different switches and variations, will post them hopefully in a couple of days.

Thank you so much, both of you!

It's taken a little longer than planned, sorry, but as promised here a some layouts for you. Hopefully the layouts are clear enough and I haven't messed anything up too much. DiMarzio wiring colours for the pickups. All diagrams have the Series/Split/Parallel mini-toggles with the Neck splitting to North coil and the other pickups splitting to South coil.

Note: The layouts below use the 'Type 2' version of the On/On/On mini-toggle. If you have the 'Type 1' version then you will need to mirror the connections on the switches ie. left->right, right->left (as shown on this diagram).

Layout 1 uses a standard import 3-way toggle with the concentric pots. The neck and middle volumes are linked so the 3-way gives:
1. Neck + Middle (turn down the other volume for Neck only or Middle only).
2. All pickups.
3. Bridge only.
The Bridge can have a treble bleed as it's not linked to another volume and allows you to mute the guitar by turning down the Bridge volume when in the 'All' position.
Attachment 37993

Layout 2 uses two 3-way toggles which allows all pickup combinations to be switched, as such the volumes can all be wired with treble bleeds. Zeroing the volume of any selected pickup will mute the guitar, just like on an LP.
Attachment 37994

Layout 3 uses the huge Switchcraft 12015X right-angle toggle switch to give you the Neck/All/Bridge configuration. Because all the pickups are connected in the 'All' position you need to zero a volume to get the Neck/Middle or Bridge/Middle combinations, therefore you can't have treble bleeds on this layout. Note: it's a REALLY big switch.
Attachment 37995

Layout 4 is a little different. It gives up individual tone controls in favour of a master tone and uses two push/pull pots. The Bridge and Neck volumes are on a concentric pot with treble bleeds for each, the Middle volume is a push/pull which also has a treble bleed. The master tone is another push/pull. The 3-way toggle selects the traditional Bridge/Bridge + Neck/Neck. The Middle volume push/pull adds the Middle pickup into the output when 'down' and disconnects it when 'up'. The master tone push/pull acts as a sort of override, when 'up' it disconnects the other pickups and gives the Middle pickup only, regardless of the settings of the other push/pull or toggle switch.
Attachment 37996

Hopefully one of the above will work for you. If you have any questions or want another variation or change, just ask.

Hey Scott,

Just took a quick peek and i'm exited. I will now give it a tought and start soldering. I'll keep you informed. Thank you so much!

Heya,

I went for the first diagram. As I am totally unexperienced in soldering, it was hard, no need to tell you.
It's not perfect yet, not all options work, so in need to check some connections. Also, it buzzes like a fridge (T. Yorke) so the ground isn't connected somewhere.
But I wanted to let you know that i'm getting there.
When it's all finished, i'll post some soundscapes. Here a picture of my struggle and the guitar itself, which I didn't show yet.
(the 'electronics guard' will be the same colour as the rest of the guitar in a few weeks, this is just a placeholder)

Greetings

Attachment 38095
Attachment 38096

I'm still encountering 2 problems:
1. The toggle switch in mid position should give ALL PU's but it gives: nothing/. I'll try resoldering it
2. Mid PU and neck PU have significatly less output than the bridge one. Could this be a ground problem?

1) If you get sound with the switch up and down but not in the middle, then it’s not soldering, it’s a faulty switch (I did say they were poor and very liable to fail). Just make sure you have the bridge volume control turned up, as the way it’s wired, having it turned all the way down will kill the sound of the other pickups.

If you have a multimeter, putting the meter between the toggle switch output connection and ground with the switch in the bridge position should give a reading of between roughly 7k-10k in the bridge position and roughly half that in the neck + middle pickup position. If you get that, then with the switch in mid-position and all volumes and tones up fully, you should get a reading of somewhere between 2k and 3.5k ohms as you have all three pickups connected in parallel. Open circuit or short circuit then indicates a definite switch problem.

2) Unlikely to be a ground problem. You have the two pickups wired in parallel, and that will always give less output than one pickup on its own. Because the two pickups are next to each other, the tonal difference between the pickups is less than you’d get between the neck and bridge pickup wired in parallel, so you’ll get more phase cancellations than neck+bridge and a thinner sound. Try turning the neck pickup down and you should find the middle pickup sounds louder. Same with the neck pickup when turning the middle pickup down.

The bridge pickup is normally wound a lot hotter than a neck pickup to compensate for the lower amplitude of string movement near the bridge. Normally between an extra 0.5k and 1k on the DCR reading for a balanced set of pickups. But if it’s wound a lot hotter, then it will sound louder. Mix that against two pickups in parallel and you could get quite a difference in output.

Looking at the picture of your guitar, the bridge pickup is a lot further from the bridge than is normal. It normally sits between 2-2.5cm away. With it further away, the string amplitude is greater, so add that to a hotter pickup and the extra output could be very noticeable.

So it’s worth adjusting the pickup heights to try and compensate, dropping the bridge down and moving the neck and middle ones up.

Ok Simon,

Thanks once again. I adjusted the height of the PU's and that seems to solve the problem of difference in output.
The first problem (mid position not working) was indeed as you said: volume of bridge should be open.
I'm still encountering some issues though.

1/When turning the volume of the neck PU up, the bridge PU sounds louder and vica verse
And some other weird things: turning bridge all the way up and neck all the way up: i hear no sound, turning bridge a little bit down, there is sound
I used braided shield wire to connect the pots to the toggle ( https://www.gitaarupgrade.nl/webshop...son-style.html) Was that stupid?
would that cause this problem?
2/ I have the feeling serial/split/paralel isn't working on all pu's. Where would I have to hold my multimeter to see if it's working as planned?

On 1), it's impossible to say without having it in front of me for inspection. I'd disconnect the link from middle pickup volume to the neck pickup volume so that you only have the neck and bridge connected (the middle pickup's ground can stay connected). That will make it easier to test the operation and check for possible wiring mistakes and cross-overs.

On 2), it's hard to tell with a multimeter as the resistances for split and parallel will be almost identical. It is easier to tap the metal pole-pieces on each coil in the selected pickup with a screwdriver.

In humbucking mode, the output will be higher and tapping will give a loud click from both coils. In parallel mode, the overall output will be quieter with more treble and again, tapping will give a loud click from both coils. In single coil mode, the output should probably be quietest, and you'll get a loud click from the working coil, but a much softer one from hitting the grounded coil (which is the live coil making a sound through mechanical transmission of the vibrations)

Hey friends,

Happy to let you know that it's all working now. I'm so happy :-)
And I can't thank you enough for your support. No way I could have figured it all out by myself.

Later, I'll post some sounds in the sounds section.

:o

Oh, maybe someone encounters this problem: Everything was working but it still sounded 'thin' in all positions or combinations. I found out that the positive from the jack was touching the conductive paint on the inside of the guitar. When i put some tape between it, solved :-)

Well done! It was quite a complicated scheme to wire all at once, especially for someone not used to doing it. Glad it's all working.

And don't forget, you've still got 3 of WeirdBits other wiring schemes to try!

Yes, conductive paint is a bit harder to track down a short on, as it's got a higher resistance than copper shielding tape, so you get less signal, not total silence.

Hi all, looking for something similar, but minus the three way pickup selector switch, I want to be able to "blend" each of the three pickups, with 0 being quiet, 10 full blast. This is a Telemaster with three Bill Lawrence XL Soapbars, three concentric pots, three on/on/on toggles (one for each pickup), ZERO pickup selector toggles.

So independent volume/tone concentric pot and one three way switch per pickup, then straight out. The idea is to keep it as simple as possible for each pickup. I'm overthinking it, I'm sure, it seems so straightforward, but after seeing another post about independent volume vs. otherwise, my brain shut down. The diagrams within this thread are close, but I just need a fresh perspective. Thank all, great resource here!

It's never quite as simple as at least I thought at first, because the controls all interact with each other. I hope this isn't egg sucking advice, but the trap I've fallen into is to think is thinking that because I draw it all in a neat row from left to right the signal will go like that. Well it will, but it will also go backwards and round the houses, because the signals aren't electronically separated. So although you have individual tone controls on each pickup, in fact all the tone controls affect all the pickups to a greater or lesser amount, and the volume settings can also affect the tone. This makes my head hurt so much trying to figure it out I've given up and just have one tone control on my guitars!

Thus the order you have things in makes a big difference. If things are in the order pickup -> vol -> tone -> switch then each tone control affects the sound on all pickups while its switch is on, even if the volume on that pickup is turned down to 0. If you have order pickup -> tone -> vol -> switch then the tone control won't affect the other pickups when it's volume is 0, but still will as the volume is turned up.

Practically speaking the takeaway is that you can't have a big treble cut on one pickup and full treble from another. How much this is an issue is down to you. It hurts my sense of order, but great guitarists have been getting great sound out of guitars with multiple tone controls since they were invented without giving a damn about how the knobs interact, just twiddling until the sound was right. It gets even worse if you throw phase and coil tap in the mix.

At the moment I've gone off complex multi switch wiring a bit. Too many of the combinations didn't seem to offer much. I suppose in an ideal world I'd build a new guitar with a temporary setup so I could try every possible combination, then simplify it so only the good ones were left, but I'm not disciplined enough or for that matter enthusiastic enough about soldering...

Independent volumes without a selector switch means all of the pots are always in the circuit, and that's essentially doubled with concentric volume/tone pairs. This can make the sound darker than a standard switched arrangement, on top of the potential tone interactions, so be prepared. Increasing the pot values can help compensate, eg. going from 500K to 1M Ω, so I've marked that on the layout. Hopefully this is what you wanted:

Attachment 39284

Note: the wiring colours are different for Bill Lawrence (Bill & Becky) and Bill Lawrence U.S.A marked pickups, so if you have the latter you'll need to change the connections on the mini-switches.

For 'Bill Lawrence U.S.A' pickups, connect:
Red where White is on the mini-switches.
White where Green is on the mini-switches.
Green where Red is on the mini-switches.
Black & Blue/Bare stay the same.

Let me know if anything is unclear.

First of all, thank you both for your brain power. I see the conundrum, pretty much what I had feared. But... I believe I will give this latest iteration a go, and just see what it produces. The guitar itself is kinda "dark" in concept, so it might lend itself well to that path. I'd upload a pic, butit'll have none of it. I'll keep you posted of the results, and thanks again.

I've got nothing...

except to say what a great asset WeirBits is to this community!

Good on ya Scott!