Fretting help!

Hey,

I've been re-fretting an Ag-1 neck with larger, stainless steel frets. Using a radius block from pitbull, I sanded down the fretboard to remove the chips made by removing the frets and in doing so, made the fret slots shallower. I have a fret saw and have been trying to cut the slots deep enough but I'm having trouble getting it right. I have a spare neck I'm testing on but no matter how I try to saw, the frets aren't sitting deep enough, the crown sticking up from the fretboard too much.

Attachment 37894 Attachment 37895

I've tried sawing deeper, sawing less and smashing it in with the hammer but it doesn't seem to do much. The neck pictured is my spare, already damaged neck but the result is very similar on the actual neck. What should I do? Am I doing something wrong?

I'd suggest the saw simply isn't wide enough for the tang width the frets have. The width can vary between fret types and you need the right width saw. The tang looks significantly wider than the fret slot in the picture and it obviously doesn't want to go in as you've bent the crown of the test fret over.

I agree with Simon on the tang/slot width relationship. The slot looks more than deep enough.
I can't tell if the bent crown is a result of trying hammer it into the slot or if it has been deformed by your nippers when cutting off the wire.

Did you measure the old fretwire before ordering the new?
Most manufacturers give all the details like crown width & height; tang depth and width. (the width is usually the distance from point to point of "teeth" on the tang)

This is one reason lots of luthiers avoid stainless steel fret work. It can be very unforgiving compared to nickel.

I found measurements for the saw width (.58mm) and the tang width (.6mm), so a .02mm difference. Is that enough to cause issues?

Yeah McCreed I think you're right, I think it was the cutting that caused that, I reckon I should cut parallel to the tang

It shouldn't be an issue, the slot needs to be very slightly smaller. But you really need to measure the saw blade and the tang width rather than read a spec. And if you are twisting the fret by cutting the end off, then you may as well throw that fret away, you can't use it and expect a good result. It need to remain perfectly T-shaped. Are your cutters designed for stainless frets?

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It needs to remain perfectly T-shaped. Are your cutters designed for stainless frets?

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Simon makes a good point. If the cutters aren't hard enough, they will squash the wire before it actually cuts it.

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Yeah McCreed I think you're right, I think it was the cutting that caused that, I reckon I should cut parallel to the tang

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The way I like to cut my fretwire is kind of a three step approach.
When I cut the the fret initially, I cut it slightly longer than needed and cut it parallel to the tang as you said.
In my second step, I cut back the tang so it is recessed within the fretboard. Next I cut the crown to length with the cutters parallel to the fretboard. (hopefully that makes sense)

This is just my method. Some people like the tang flush with the fretboard. I prefer it recessed and then fill the ends of the slots. To each his own.

What radius is the fret wire bent to and what radius is the fretboard?

Also a lot of people run a triangle file across each fret slot just to take a very tiny amount of material off the corners at the top of the slot.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

It shouldn't be an issue, the slot needs to be very slightly smaller. But you really need to measure the saw blade and the tang width rather than read a spec. And if you are twisting the fret by cutting the end off, then you may as well throw that fret away, you can't use it and expect a good result. It need to remain perfectly T-shaped. Are your cutters designed for stainless frets?

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I found that out the hard way and that was with nickel. There was only one certain way I could cut the frets with good side cutters that wouldn't twist the tang. Would be much harder and more difficult with stainless.
Try different ways of cutting the fret wire with your cutters or even use a Dremel if you have one to cut them with.

well the cutters are filed down general nippers so nothing fancy. The wire itself is straight but I've been hammering the frets in with the radius block to bend it as it goes in. Good idea? Bad?

Reading this I'm think maybe I should be working with nickel first? I have enough stainless steel wire but some has been bent like pictured so I probably won't have enough in the end...

You need stainless steel fretwire to be radiused to the same radius as your fretboard prior to hammering or pressing it in otherwise it's just not going to seat properly and you'll continue fighting it as you have been. Have a look online, there are plenty of ideas for cheap fretwire bending jigs.

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I bought my fret wire with more radius then needed. The company I got it from only charged around $5. Having a bit more radius made sure the ends went in nicely.
Yes, definitely has to be radius before you put the frets in.

I, and at least one other person here, bought this fret bender. It's very well made, (not that I've actually used it).

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3269...36be4c4doiUTFm

The fret wire (according to all the books I've read), should be bent to just a very slightly smaller radius than the fretboard, so that it sticks up very slightly in the middle when placed on top of the board. Probably as the act of banging the end in will have the effect of straightening it slightly, so it naturally then follows the curve of the board. But I'd guess that if using a fret press, then the same radius would be fine. But you certainly don't want to use straight fret wire unless the neck is flat, like a classical guitar.

If you haven't done any fretwork before, then you certainty should be starting with nickel and get your techniques sorted out on that. Installing frets is one job that needs the investment in the right tools. Especially cutters and fret profiling files designed for use with stainless steel.

Well this has been an informative day...

Simon I've just watched a youtube video of a guy making a bender just like that out of some scrap wood and bearings. If I don't have some bearings lying around, I'll probably buy that one.

Sounds like I should get some nickel wire then... Bit of a shame because the stainless steel looks so nice and shiny. And maybe proper tools (imagine that, getting proper tools for a proper job?)

Diggydude, depending on where you are based, there may be a forum member with the gear necessary to help you out, or to guide you through it if you want to tool up to get the job done yourself.

As Simon said, for your first fret job you may want to stick to the nickel silver wires. Best of luck with it.

As McCreed says, the frets should be cut longer than the fretboard width, 1cm either side should do it. It's almost impossible not to deform the very ends of the wire when its not installed, so by cutting it long, the section that goes in the slot should remain intact.

Tang cutting (so you don't see the end of the tang in the fretboard) is a personal choice. Roughly 50% of my bought guitars have cut-back tangs, 50% have tangs that aren't cut back and are flush with the edge of the fretboard. If you are going for a bound fretboard with no tangs showing, then you obviously need to cut the tangs back so they fit within the central section of the fretboard.

Once the fret is installed, then it can be cut flush with the edge of the board. Before you do this, if the fret appears loose at all, then a drop of CA in the ends of the slot at either end should hold things firm.

You'll then need to file down the ends of the frets; first so that they are all truly flush with the edge of the board, and then the tops of the fret ends at an angle. You can do this with a normal file, but I bought a dedicated levelling and bevelling (two-angle) file unit to ensure things remain flush.

These files need to rated as suitable for stainless. Don't use diamond files as the stainless just wears the diamond particles off. Keep any diamond tools for nickel-silver or Evo fretwire.

Everyone has offered you the same advice and info I would have re: pre-radiusing (word???) the fretwire.

I had seen that jig on YT and considered building it once upon a time, but for $65AU± I bought the exact fretwire bender Simon posted.
It was going to cost me at least half that for bearings etc.

As near as I can tell, it's the same (unbranded) unit Stew-Mac sells for nearly quadruple the price. It's excellent quality and works great.

I got pre-cut frets from Alibaba.
At approx. $3.00 for a packet of 24 they represent 'value for money'
Only down-side is how long they took to show up.
These arrived the other week out of the blue..so long ago that I'd forgotten about them.
Attachment 37901

As per the 'pre-radius' I concocted a KC bodge thus.
I am installing them into a 7.25" radius neck.
Used the butt end of a trashed neck and set about increasing it's radius to about 5.
Attachment 37902

Another sliver of wood convex.

Attachment 37903

Using a G clamp to squeeze them down.

Attachment 37904

cheers, Mark.

Something like this is also very easy to knock up if you have lengths of fret wire

https://i.imgur.com/9uyH4NW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/R9rZzuO.jpg

Thank you all, I sure have a lot of decisions to make, but that can wait until after exams.

I think I'll borrow your bending idea king casey for this one but I'll invest in a proper bender when I have the money available along with a beveling file (The one I have for now is good for stainless steel so even if I stick to it and not nickel, the file will be fine).

Progress!! I used King Casey's method of bending the frets. It wasn't exact, but it worked. I've installed all the frets (I had exactly enough wire thankfully) and it went with minimal issues.

The frets are not sitting completely flush though...

Attachment 38166 Attachment 38167

Hopefully you can see it, it's hard to photograph.

They are very close though, I can slide a piece of paper under but not a folded piece. They are also very uniform, all of them at pretty much the same height above the fretboard. Some of them have edges sticking up but I can sort those out easily.

I am happy with how they are seated but want more opinions. As long as it won't cause issues, I'd be happy to leave them as they are.

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Originally Posted by Diggydude

The frets are not sitting completely flush though...

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Hi Diggydude.
I use one of these to install the frets...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Guitar-M...97.m4902.l9144

You'll need to get a brass insert of the correct radius for it....
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brass-gu...wAAOSwbKdcE02A

Some of them I make doubly sure by using small amount of glue.

cheers, Mark.