Jon's 335-style build

Hello all,

I'm starting out on an ES-335 style build. It's a kit I got from DIY Guitars in Sydney, received this week. So far I'm reasonably pleased with the kit - it's got a lovely burl maple top and back, basswood sides (I think), and a maple neck. It came with gold hardware that seems to be OK, and Wilkinson P90s.

I'm really looking forward to the build. I've pretty much settled on a Tru Oil finish, having done a lot of reading. I'm planning on a water based stain for the top (probably blue) and leaving the sides and back natural. I'm going to do a lot of the finishing before setting the neck, and I don't think I'll drill the bridge posts until I've done that.

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- it's got a few issues I'll need to tackle, and I'd welcome advice.

(1) The neck pocket has a slight lateral tilt. I was pretty disappointed when I first found this, but I'm starting to think it's not really a big issue. It seems to have very little resulting tilt in the fretboard, and the neck fits the pocket quite well. The neck angle seems OK from an initial measurement. Any resulting tile could presumably be accommodated in the bridge. Does that sound reasonable? The thought of sanding out the pocket scares me.

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... I'll add new posts with the other issues.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Cheers,

jon

(2) The next challenge is the veneer. It's pretty messy. You can see from these pics that there's filler, and stains that could be (?) glue. I'm not sure what to do about this, as I'm wary of sanding through the veneer, and I don't know if that filler will take a stain. One option would just be to use a natural Tru Oil finish (i.e. no stain) as I think the blemishes will be less visible - they'll kind of merge into the burl.

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Is that from the DIY Guitars that has had a "DIY GUITARS HAS CLOSED" banner in red across the top of the website for years? I have always wondered if they are closed, why is the website still running?

I won't offer any advice on the build or the specific questions though (see my signature!). It looks like a lot of potential for a great looking guitar.

DC

It is the same DIY Guitars. They have an Ebay store that's still selling off stock (which is where I got the kit), though there doesn't look to be much left.

Combining Blue dye with Tru-Oil, will result in green.

cheers, Mark

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Originally Posted by king casey

Combining Blue dye with Tru-Oil, will result in green.

cheers, Mark

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Yeah, I'd read about that - seems to be dependent on the dye, but maybe I'm better off with a more "yellowing friendly" starting point.

If the neck fits well in the pocket, then I'd leave it as it is. If you sand the base flat, then the sides of the pocket will stop it from tilting so that the neck wont sit flat against the bottom of the pocket, and that's the most important area for gluing and holding the neck on. You can only really clamp the neck downwards, not sideways, so if the neck isn't making full contact at the bottom, then your neck joint will be very weak. Plus you'd have a gap underneath which would need filling and it would look just the same! And your fretboard is currently level with the top, so angling the neck will angle that as well.

So unless you really attack the sides and bottom of the neck pocket to get everything square, and use veneer to fill in the gaps (which is a lot of work), or plug the pocket with a solid block of wood and re-rout it (maybe routing the neck heel to a smaller size to match a correspondingly smaller pocket size), which again is a lot of work, then I'd leave things be.

IMO, those burl tops really look best left natural, or with a very slight amber stain. I've seen a few builds where people have used dark coloured stains on them, and you really do lose a lot of the detail in the wood. And once you've gone with a dark stain you can't go back.

But it's your build, so please feel free to whatever you want to do with it.

Thanks for your advice Simon. I shall leave the neck pocket as it is. The neck does fit pretty well, and does feel like it is secure when it's clamped. There is very slight lateral movement of the neck when it's in place, so I think I might shave a fraction off the heel so that it sits really flat against the back of the pickup route. That would also line the end of the fretboard up with the pickup route.

As far as the stain is concerned, I'm going to go with something more natural. I want a little but of contrast between the top and the sides/back, and the latter will just be finished with TO. I'm going to get a couple of Feast Watson proof tint stains (teak and maple) from Bunnings today and I'll try them out on some scrap, not that I have any maple burl scrap to hand ;-)

Would you sand before staining? The veneer is very thin, and I'm worried I'm going to sand through it. It feels smooth already. I think I'll dilute the stain and put one coat on, and then sand very lightly. I can always add another coat of stain.

Cheers,

Jon

No real point sanding the veneer, it will be smooth enough. If the stain is water-based, then it will probably raise any loose grain, so you may deed a very light rub-over with say 800 grit afterwards once it's dry.

Make sure you double-check for any glue-spots before staining though.

Thanks Simon - no sanding it is!

I decided to finish the back before I do the top, so that I can learn from any mistakes in a less visible place. I had a go at the glue marks with Goof Off, but only with limited success really - I don't know what the stuff is, but I'm guessing it's mostly filler. Either way, there's so much going in with this burl, that the blemishes become much less noticeable.

Here it is after one coat of tru oil. The oil really sank in! I'm really happy with the colour it's developed already, to the extent that I'm thinking the top won't need staining at all - this is the kind of colour I was looking for.

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Looks stunning. I agree that there is so much contrast and texture with the burl that a stain isn't needed.

Agreed. I always feel that burl veneer just needs clear or a very light amber tint at most, as you want to see the wood grain, not hide it. If you want to stain, don't get burl.

Looking good with lots of interesting detail.

Here it is after about 10 coats of TO, with a light sand after every fourth. The veneer really is a rough job - it even has chunks missing in places. Fortunately it's not anywhere near as noticeable as it would be on a less figured top.

I did four coats of TO on the neck, sanded back, and then put one more on. I think I'm going to leave it at that, as it feels really smooth and fast.

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That is stunning!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by jonwhitear

The veneer really is a rough job - it even has chunks missing in places.

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Perhaps almost inevitable with burl unless its a really high priced job. Seems to me that a lot of veneers would get thrown away if they insisted on every one being perfect. I admire anyone who can work with it, its way beyond my skill set.

Still, that does look nice.

One thing I did with my tru oil instrument, where I was filling over an inlaid headstock veneer, was to build it up with repeated layers of tru oil sealer filler, literally dripped on thick and left to cure, until I was eventually able to sand it flush. Some layers were so thick they wrinkled up when curing, but now its sanded and polished I can't tell. Might be worth trying if you haven't filled your drop outs another way.

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Originally Posted by JimC

Perhaps almost inevitable with burl unless its a really high priced job. Seems to me that a lot of veneers would get thrown away if they insisted on every one being perfect.

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Yes, I need to remind myself that this is a kit guitar that cost hundreds of dollars, rather than a production guitar that cost thousands!

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Originally Posted by JimC

One thing I did with my tru oil instrument, where I was filling over an inlaid headstock veneer, was to build it up with repeated layers of tru oil sealer filler, literally dripped on thick and left to cure, until I was eventually able to sand it flush. Some layers were so thick they wrinkled up when curing, but now its sanded and polished I can't tell. Might be worth trying if you haven't filled your drop outs another way.

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Thanks for the tip. Can you use the sealer filler over the top of TO?

I think I'm about done with the finish on the back. It's not the flattest finish, but it's shiny and I'm happy with it.

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That's very nice looking indeed!

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...but it's shiny and I'm happy with it.

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Shiny is good! Very nice.

Looks good. It's giving me some surface of Io vibes:
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Looks fantastic!

Really amazing. You're right, I think. Always stop the finishing process when you get to "amazing" ;-)

Thanks guys. The last six coats (or so) were 50:50 TO and turps, with a wet sand with 1200 grit and turps after every second coat. I've borrowed that method from wazkelly. The diluted oil really does go on shiny and seems to do a good job of flattening out minor uneveness. It also seems to attract dust and dog hair like a magnet ;-)

I've just passed the terrifying milestone of drilling the bridge post holes, which seems to have gone OK. Here are some photos along the way. I've levelled and dressed the frets, which were actually pretty good, set the neck, and applied plenty more tru oil along the way.

I wasn't quite sure which angle to drill the post holes at - perpendicular the plane of the strings, perpendicular to the plane of the body (i.e. the edge binding), or what looks like perpendicular to the top on that particular spot. I went with the latter, and built a simple jig to keep the body at the right angle while it was on the drill press. I don't know about measure twice and cut once - I must have measured fifty times! Still, they appear to be in the right place - I guess I'll only find out when I bang them in. I ended up with a 12mm drill bit after tests with an 11mm bit on some scrap where I couldn't begin to get the post in the hole.

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Perpendicular to the strings is the ideal. Anything else and as you adjust the bridge height the bridge will move backwards or forwards relative to the strings so you'll then need to adjust the intonation (if it was set before). But as long as the resulting angle isn't too great, then it won't be an issue as you won't adjust the height much once you've done your basic set-up, and then by a couple of mm at most.

Thanks Simon. I think it was pretty close to perpendicular to the strings in the end, as better seen here. The neck's looking pretty level.

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Originally Posted by jonwhitear

I don't know about measure twice and cut once - I must have measured fifty times!

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Infinitely preferable to measure a couple of times, have a bash, re-measure, swear furiously then dissolve in big salty tears.

Well done Sir. :)

I think on any curved body, any post insert with a lip at the top is always going to be a bit of a compromise. Unless you drill a small rebate for the lip to sit in, any hole that isn't drilled at a tangent to the top will result in one edge of the lip hitting the body before the opposite edge and leaving a gap. Unless it's a really soft body wood, you aren't likely to be able to knock it in much further and remove the gap. So IMO it's generally better for the aesthetics to take precedence, unless the bridge will sit a long way from the body. Which is never a good idea if you can help it.

I've made some more progress. I left the finish to harden for a week then polished and waxed it at the weekend. The results are OK, but there are still swirl marks, through they don't bother me. I've also made the wiring harness and installed it - getting it in there was a bit fiddly, and it tested OK before it went in, but now the bridge pickup doesn't work, so I've got some troubleshooting to do there. This pic is a work in progress host of the wiring - not finished at this point as the switch is wired up.

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I've also assembled the whole guitar, and made an attempt at getting the nut height right, which I think is going to take a few attempts. Setting the intonation was good - I was using a chromatic tuner app on my phone, but will switch to garage band now that the electrics are working-ish. Overall it plays quite nicely, but I've realised that there's an art to guitar set-ups that I'm going to have to learn!

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Setting the pickup height isn't working so well for me at the moment - I think I'm going to have to install some shims in the bottom of the pickup routes to give me some more height while still having some depth for the screws to bite into. Probably also some sort of padding to try and keep the pickups level.

Still more work to do, though I'm already getting a funny feeling that there may be a GSM-1 in my future ;-)

That maple top looks great.

Well, it's been quite a while, and I've been slowly working away on this guitar - I think I'm going to call this done.

I've been playing it for quite a while, but I've only recently got around to the finishing touches - headstock decal and truss rod cover.

This was my first build, and a huge learning curve. The finished product is far from perfect in many ways. I'm not even sure it passes the two meter test! It does, however, play quite nicely, and has seen my poor old strat collecting dust.

Many thanks to all who so generously shared their experience and knowledge. This forum really is a great community.

Cheers,

Jon

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It looks great. Well done.

You may have another go at setting up the guitar in the future. I’ve just done this on my first kit and the string height is as low as I’ve ever experienced with no fret buzz. Experience and experimentation will get you there. That guitar has the nicest veneer.

Thanks guys,

DarkMark, the action is a little high (could you tell that from the photos?) At least, it feels like it is, but I've just measured it and it's about 2mm at the 12th fret on the low E string, which is probably OK. I didn't quite get the neck angle right, so it's as good as I can get it with a very slight relief in the neck and the bridge wound all the way down. I have considered filing the bottom of the bridge down (i.e. below the posts) so I can drop it down a little further.

There's certainly some skill in setting up a guitar, and I'm still learning it ;-)

The neck angle on my ES-1/330 build was also a bit too shallow to get a decent low action. I ended up replacing the bridge post bushings with ones that sat level with the top and also cut the saddle notches a bit lower in order to get it low enough for me to be happy. https://www.buildyourownguitar.com.a...l=1#post204201

You'll have to do a search for suitable replacement bushings, as a lot have the lip on top which adds an extra 1.3mm or so of height. I think these were from the TonePros locking stud set I got for my GSJ-1 build and didn't use as the existing bushings were fine. You'll need an M8 internal thread.

You can also use a triangular or square needle file to deepen the saddle slots, but it's neater if you can use nut files. Just don't go mad as it's easy to cut too deep. You may find that deeper saddle slots will

Nice looking guitar, so it's worth a bit of effort trying to get it set up properly.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Nice looking guitar, so it's worth a bit of effort trying to get it set up properly.

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Thanks for the nudge;-)

I had a look around for some replacement bushings, but couldn't really find anything, so I converted some spares that I had with the help my drill press and a file. The thought of pulling the bushings was a bit scary, but a simple jig and a test piece made et easier. They actually came out surprisingly easily given how hard I hit them with a mallet to get them in!

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Now my action is about 1mm at the 12th fret on both high and low E strings. I am getting a bit of buzz, most notably on the B string. I'm going to play it for a while, and might raise the bridge a little.

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Cheers,

Jon

Nice looking guitar.
I have the same pickups in my JM-1...looks much better once the 'Wilkinson' brand is removed.
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cheers, Mark.

The good thing about bridge bushings is that they don’t have any upwards force on them, it’s almost all downwards with a small amount of sideways force. You don’t want them sloppy in the holes, but you don’t need them super tight either. It’s the stop piece bushings that need to be really secure.

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Originally Posted by king casey

Nice looking guitar.
I have the same pickups in my JM-1...looks much better once the 'Wilkinson' brand is removed.
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cheers, Mark.

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Mark, how did you get the branding off? I've had a look at mine, and I'm not sure how to do it without damaging them. Did you use a solvent?

Cheers, Jon