Morin Khuur try out electric concept

While waiting for parts for my other build, I thought I would make a start on the Morin Khuur (Mongolian Horse Fiddle) electric concept idea. I have a traditional Morin Khuur (my wife is Mongolian) and have been trying to learn this awkward instrument for some time now. Despite having only 2 strings it is a nightmare to tune with its wooden friction pegs and multi strand horsehair strings, although mine are now the more modern nylon (130 strand for Morin, the male or stallion string, B flat) 105 strand for Khuur the female or mare string, F)
Although the instrument is beginning to surface in modern music, Jonon, The Hu etc , it is still mainly an acoustic instrument mic'd or fitted with piezo's etc. Fingering technique is somewhat alien to my western fingers as strings are about 15 to 20 mm above the finger board and are pinched or pushed with the fingernail while bowing in a sort of cello fashion (holding the bow upside down so as to be able to put pressure on the hairs from the inside) sitting with the instrument on the lap.
My masterplan is to create a similar instrument, solid bodied and electric, with flat-wound strings close to the fretless fingerboard. I will follow some traditional cues and westernise where it feels right to do so. I have used a 24" scale, my traditional one is 23 1/8"
I started with a fairly small lump of Spalted Ash and a length of Sapele for the neck. I was concentrating so much in getting the 3 degree neck lay back that I made the neck pocket a bit wide (doh!) so fillers already.:( The neck is bolt on to allow modifications if needed. The body will grow a bit as side wings are added to give the traditional trapezoidal shape, I will extend the back end by about the same amount. The angle of the neck is to get the strings at the bowing area away from the body, there will also be some relief to the body to accommodate the bow. The 2 string bridge will be mounted on a riser for the same reason.
I have temporarily set some bass tuners, the 3rd tuner hole is for a non sounding 3rd damped string that will start in a ferrule in the neck pocket and will run in a slot under the neck, it will be used to counter the tension in the neck in the absence of a truss rod, if indeed it is needed.
This is really just a project that popped into my head one sleepless night, we will see where it goes, but s the saying goes I'm playing this one by ear
first pic my traditional instrument, 2nd and 3rd the initial fabrication including fillets to correct idiocy, 4th and 5th, the neck set back angle
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I have never seen one of these before, but it looks like an awesome project. Are they traditionally hollow-bodied?

That's awesome! Non-Western stringed instruments will always turn my head.
I'm more into Middle Eastern stuff, but definitely appreciate this.
My other half is a bit of a fan of The Hu.

Keep the updates coming!

Thats Great! I have wanted one for a while, love their sound.
I have a Chinese Erhu in my collection which is very similar!

Yes traditionally a hollow body acoustic and the sound is awesome, mellow, haunting and powerful. My idea is to try and emulate some of that with a more guitar feel and playability. The possibility of adding effects such as wah, distortion, chorus etc may make it interesting too, but I’m getting ahead of myself. We will see if it’s actually playable first!

Does the action have to be quite so high? I'd imagine that it could be lowered if you really wanted.

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Originally Posted by Simon Barden

Does the action have to be quite so high? I'd imagine that it could be lowered if you really wanted.

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I believe they're traditionally played with the back of your fret hand fingernail against the string like a slide. That being the case, you want the fret board to be way back out of the way.

Yes it’s quite a different way to stop the strings, interesting that you compared to a slide as just been talking to a pal from my old band and he suggested a bottleneck and Ebow! Could get interesting ....

Have now fitted the Ash stepped side wings and back end to get me dimensionally to the correct planform size. I stepped it as there will be some material removed from the main body anyway to accommodate the bowing action, also, in my head this started as a project to westernise this instrument and I used the slab and neck that I was planning to make a solid cigar box guitar with. So, in some ways this will always show its roots and where its come from, linking East and West. (making it up as I go along :) )
I also fitted the bridge riser and through body bridge, bolting through to a 6mm brass block and string anchor. I used a piece of M5 studding with a nylock nut, eventually I will replace with a brass M5 screw when I get one long enough.
Work on the headstock saw the addition of the third machine head to "back tension" the neck and also the traditional horses head. I picked this one up at a junk sale and quite like it as it is looking a little bit side ways, almost a bit disapproving ;)
I have mounted the pickup surrounds prior to rebating for the pups themselves, I will be using two telecaster neck pups and a telecaster control plate behind the bridge, across the body
Loads more to do and am mocking up to test prior to any finishing work
Pics, current front and rear , headstock detail
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If you're going for the previously mentioned 20mm action, will the bridge be high enough and will the pickups be close enough to the strings to work if the bridge is higher?

No, the westernisation process is to have the action low on the fretless fingerboard, to make it more accessible to my western fingers:) I have also included subtle fret marker lines. I am following the general dimensions of the original instrument (with the exception of the depth of the body and the height of the strings)

Is it fretted or fretless? I can see lines on the fingerboard but they look more like marker lines than frets. Hard to be sure though, so thought I would ask. The traditional one is clearly fretless, so I am wondering how far you are taking the modernisation.

As mentioned above it is fretless with markers, low action so as to permit stopping the strings in a familiar (to me) way, plus of course steel strings, flat wound jazz strings to start with, 56 and 42 with the option to use flat wound bass strings of a heavier gauge if the tones are too bright, I really am making this up as I go along. It is of course a shot in the dark, but who knows it may actually work🤪

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Originally Posted by impala59

As mentioned above it is fretless with markers, low action so as to permit stopping the strings in a familiar (to me) way, plus of course steel strings, flat wound jazz strings to start with, 56 and 42 with the option to use flat wound bass strings of a heavier gauge if the tones are too bright, I really am making this up as I go along. It is of course a shot in the dark, but who knows it may actually work浪

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A salute to you sir! Making it up as we go along is very much a proud tradition of the FrankenLab! Kudos!

Thank you for that Sir! With another hat on, I also tinker, restore and generally mess about with pump action shotguns, my shooting club has christened me Frankengun 🤨 so I definitely feel an affinity with Frankenlab!!

Had to go to work today, Bah!!
thought I would add my projected next jobs for the MK
Pick up pockets routed
Relief of the bow zone (sounds a bit painful that one :0)
Rebate for control panel
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Originally Posted by impala59

Thank you for that Sir! With another hat on, I also tinker, restore and generally mess about with pump action shotguns, my shooting club has christened me Frankengun 廊 so I definitely feel an affinity with Frankenlab!!

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I shall have to see if Igor has a cousin in London he can recommend. Some assembly may be required though.😉

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Originally Posted by impala59

Had to go to work today, Bah!!
thought I would add my projected next jobs for the MK
Pick up pockets routed
Relief of the bow zone (sounds a bit painful that one :0)
Rebate for control panel
MK2 (4).JPG (141.1 KB)

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Assuming you'll be playing it upright like a cello, I'd recommend putting the controls up near the neck where you can reach them. Where you have them marked out looks like they'll be down at floor level. Keeping them high also means less routing and shorter cable lengths.

Unlike a cello, these are usually bowed up around where the neck joins the body. I'd recommend stringing it up and having a go before coming at it with a router, it might change your perspective on what goes where and what needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by Andy123

Assuming you'll be playing it upright like a cello, I'd recommend putting the controls up near the neck where you can reach them. Where you have them marked out looks like they'll be down at floor level. Keeping them high also means less routing and shorter cable lengths.

Unlike a cello, these are usually bowed up around where the neck joins the body. I'd recommend stringing it up and having a go before coming at it with a router, it might change your perspective on what goes where and what needs to be done.

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Point taken Sir!
Which is one reason why my drawings are on the photo, not on the instrument (yet). The body would not be too near the floor in a traditional upright playing position, but would be fairly low on my lap. (picture of proper Mongolian player) My other intention is to have a rotating "sharks fin" (similar to the Steinberg headless bass) on the rear of the upper left corner that would permit using a strap to play in a more guitar like position. Due to its relatively diminutive size and my placing of the neck/bridge some 2 1/2" further into the body (where a traditional neck finishes at the body) I have somewhat compromised my available places for controls (I do favour the Telecaster plate as an ideal) it may be that to rout from the back and condense the size needed for controls is the way forward, I will have to think on that. Also as another thought crosses the void in my head, relating to the neck placement, I may put a small cutaway in the top right to make access easier, it would not be without precedence as some traditional instruments are shaped thus.Thank you so much for your interest and input, there are many bridges to cross yet.
My daughter who likes to name things has christened it 'Mongo Diddly'
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Maybe even reduce to just the one pickup and a volume control?

That might just be the solution, perhaps I am over complicating it with 2 +V & T, Thank you

As I was re-stringing my old Regal Resonator, I decided to use the old E and A string for a proof of concept test, thanks to Simon for the suggestion. I found that the instrument settled naturally tuned to A and D, also tuned to A and E it was very melodic. The action is low enough and the harmonics and intonation confirms my fret marker lines. These old strings were round wound and a little lighter gauge than my intended strings but still sounded nice. I definitely have to relieve the body in the bowing zone, it bows very comfortably between where my proposed pick-ups are to be located, or indeed maybe only one pick-up. I will be slimming the neck down, to something more akin to a traditional MK. As it is somewhat heavier that a traditional one, there is a tendency for it to slip when in the sitting position, I will remedy that with a rubber anti slip pad on the bottom (as Flying V's have to play without a strap) I am working on the sharks fin that will rotate and give a "top horn" of sorts with a strap button for playing standing up. This is in keeping with my concept of westernisation and electrification. I have not yet installed my back neck tensioner but all seem ok at the moment
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Someone’s been listening to The HU.

http://youtu.be/v4xZUr0BEfE

[QUOTE=Fretworn;194889]Someone’s been listening to The HU.

Isn't everyone?

Seriously though there is some good stuff coming out of Mongolia, right across the musical spectrum, I was introduced to it many years ago when I met my wife and her family. We were married in Ulaanbaatar and went into the steppes for our honeymoon, culture shock for me but certainly in a good way

[QUOTE=impala59;194945]

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Originally Posted by Fretworn

Someone’s been listening to The HU.

Isn't everyone?

Seriously though there is some good stuff coming out of Mongolia, right across the musical spectrum, I was introduced to it many years ago when I met my wife and her family. We were married in Ulaanbaatar and went into the steppes for our honeymoon, culture shock for me but certainly in a good way

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That is just too cool!


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What a wonderful project!

I've always kicked myself for not bringing one back from Ulaan Bataar when I was there in 2004, although I'm sure I would never have learnt to play it.

Out of curiosity, have you learnt much Mongolian language from our wife? I found it fascinating, and tried hard to learn a little while I was there but it was too difficult

Yes the language is very difficult and I only manage a few words and sentences, and even then with difficulty! My wife and stepson are fluent in English now and for them it has been just as difficult (although many think the boy is a South Londoner, he has adapted so well that)
Everyone should visit that country in my humble opinion, one of the least spoilt in the world, although that’s changing as the multi nationals move in. I’m hoping that my project will be finished in time for my mother in law to take it home with her for trials with my wife’s cousins band. ( when flights recommence)

So, been absent while all around me was failing, in between fitting new callipers and rotors to the bike 🏍, they fought me all the way, fitting a tow bar and electrics to the pickup (ute for you guys down under ;)) and a flooded bathroom, I put on a (recommended) easy finish which dried utter c**p. Then the camera packed up !
Looking at options now, will post some pics as and when

It never rains around here, but it just comes pouring down.

I hope things improve soon.

It's actually been very sunny and warm in the UK recently.

Well recovery has been attempted and at least it looks like a piece of wood now not a toffee apple (English delicacy of apple dipped in caramelised (burnt) sugar!) Got some Danish oil on it curing, we will see how it turns out. It actually looks a little better than in the photo so hopeful at least. The spalted ash unfortunately has some grain that looks like pencil marks, have to live with that.
I went with my original plan of two tele neck pickups, (the bridge mount raised a few mm) and control panel across the body, (switch will be uppermost when using strap) My reasoning being that the player will have relatively easy access to the controls with his/her bow hand little finger (pinky) due to the upside down technique of bowing the traditional instrument.
The folding aluminium sharks fin with strap button actually works well, when played in the sitting position it folds out of sight. I profiled the back end/ bottom of the body, for lap playing and will fit a rubber anti slip pad on the curve. The neck has been stained with a touch of black and is being oil finished

pic 1 The body hanging/curing

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pic 2 The hanging tree, neck in foreground

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As I have stated previously this is a make it up as I go project, very much suck it and see, if the concept is feasible then there are a myriad of other ways and means to hopefully improve it

Had a couple of weeks off laid up with a pelvis/back injury, now on the mend thankfully and thought I should finish off a few projects now I can move again.
As a first tryout this has been relatively successful, it holds tune, is easy to play in either the traditional way on the lap or with the strap using the fold out shark fin. So far have tuned to A on the low string and E on the high, easy chords and bluesy feel. I am using heavy gauge flat wounds, 56 and 42 respectively.
Two old tele neck pickups from different manufacturers give a nice warm sound with a little subtle variation when switched with a standard tele plate
The third silent bracing string is a bit overkill, .7mm piano wire, I found that if I wound it up too much I could possibly rip the screws out of the neck pocket.
Not a brilliant finish, due to taking some bad advice but it looks ok in the flesh
A second one is brewing in the back of my mind, looking to correct errors and improve on this one. It will be off to Mongolia shortly for some locals to try out, we shall await their verdict...………
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Love to see video of it being played. Love it. Good on you for trying sometime new.

Well an old pal popped in and promptly picked up the morin Khuur, Laid it flat across his lap, detuned it to D and A, produced a bottleneck and announced that he was going to make a 2 string lap steel! Despite him being a philistine, it did sound good, maybe I should have just got a plank!

Just call it a 'versatile' instrument.

But a 2-string lap steel plank could be your next quick project!